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Noone can deny that we live in an imperfect world where bad,and even terrible things happen and that causes so many people to doubt God.
While God could have created a perfect world inhabited by perfect people I believe that he wisely chose not to. The negative and bad things provide the contrast that makes it possible to appreciate the positive and good things thereby giving them meaning. Ugliness provides the contrast that makes beauty stand out. Sickness provides the contrast that makes us appreciate good health. The inevitability of death helps us appreciate the preciousness and sanctity of life. The alternative of being able to choose evil is what makes it virtuous to choose good. And so on.
Also,only in an imperfect world is there potential for growth or anything to aspire to. In a perfect world,by contrast,we can never grow or improve but just statically exist in an unalterable state of perfection without even any contrast to enable us to appreciate it. I believe that God,in his wisdom, spared us from that by creating an imperfect world full of contrast and potential for personal growth.
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badassatron bumblebee
yup, it's got wabi sabi ^o^
i justify the morality of god to be similar to yours, after all nobody grows in comfort zones. ignorance is bliss, because a perfect world is more dystopian than ours, never being able to reach good potentials or know the whys and hows because they are limited to merely feelings and comfort all that sweet jello bs
plus, god did actually try to put some justice, punishing the isrealites when they were worshipping an idol. it's the inevitability of broken promises and sin that moves the cycle of evil, so god isn't an enabler, we're the ones that are awfully stubborn
he still punishes today, e.g. rape, where the perpetrator is set to death
Thanks. You’re absolutely right that God is not an enabler. He gave us free will. Good and evil are only virtuous or sinful when freely chosen. God does sometimes punish evildoers but he gives them every chance to repent first. But,like you said,due to obstinacy, people can become so hardened in sin that they are beyond further hope of repentance. That’s when God’s mercy gives way to his wrath. Only God knows when someone truly reaches that point and he sometimes wondrously saves seemingly irredeemable people. For example the wicked king Mannaseh who repented in the end.
by Child of Light; ; Report
chavi☆
A loving father will never subject its children to something bad just so they realise how much they have is enough and to prove themselves to him. Maybe god isn't real but just energy and universe that came together to create life and energy isn't good or bad it is neutral it is natural flow. Or maybe your god is evil considering all the bad things.
With respect,you have misconstrued my meaning. I’m not saying that God subjects us to bad things so that we will appreciate what we have. I’m saying that the negative things provide the contrast that makes the positive things special rather than just ordinary. Also I am saying that only in an imperfect world is there anything to strive for or any scope for personal growth. In a perfect world life would just be static and no room for improvement. No personal growth and nothing to strive towards (both of which are basic human needs).
If God was a control freak he could have created a world in which nothing bad ever happens and we can only be obedient automatons but that would not be loving. A loving father gives his children choices and allows them to take risks rather than stifle their growth. A control freak father gives his children no choices and no autonomy. (I say that from personal experience).
by Child of Light; ; Report
But those are human attributes. A loving father on earth needs to let their children learn survival skills because that is how your so called "transcend" figure created Earth, but if he had just created a world perfect people could just stay happy. Wars and cancer doesn't make us appreciate good things, they make things awful, world hinger exist not so that that we could say "oooh atleast we've got food". The idea of a figure as god makes no sense, who do you think made god? How did god come from nothing of "he" is a transcend figure?
by chavi☆; ; Report
Yes,if God created a perfect world everyone would be happy but only because they couldn’t be any other way. A happy automaton would still be an automaton and I certainly would not want to be an automaton. Not even a happy one.
Cancer and other serious illnesses are an unfortunate effect of an imperfect world. Seeking to cure such illnesses and alleviate the suffering they cause is an example of striving for improvement.
Wars and world hunger are man made problems and it’s man’s responsibility to eliminate them. As a pacifist I believe that war will cease when all men stand together and refuse to bear arms and tell their respective governments ,”We will not fight “. World hunger will only end when our leaders and lawmakers learn to prioritise human need over the supposed rights of the greedy few.
The question of how God created the universe, and how God can exist with no beginning himself,are questions that I don’t have an answer for other than to truthfully answer that I don’t know.
by Child of Light; ; Report
Well if god made people with good heart then we wouldn't have to fight wars, and world hunger wouldn't exist. Maybe god is a sadist.
by chavi☆; ; Report
Good and evil are free will choices. Good is only good when it’s freely chosen. With free will comes responsibility for our choices. War and world hunger are man made not God made and it’s the responsibility of man to put it right,
We only have to fight wars if we lack the courage to say no. Every time someone refuses to bear arms we come a small step nearer to world peace. War will only end when all men in all nations refuse to obey the draft.
God gave the world’s resources,including food,as a gift to all people but a greedy few have taken more than they need. As I have said it’s up to me governments of all nations to stop prioritising greed over need.
With regards to your theory of God being a cruel sadist. The teachings of Jesus do not advocate cruelty. Just the opposite. (I’m not interested in any arguments based on the behaviour of so called Christians. I make a sharp distinction between those who follow what Jesus taught and those who distort his teachings).
I will conclude by saying that the most important teaching of Christianity (and also found in all religions) is the golden rule. DO UNTO OTHERS AS YOU WOULD HAVE THEM DO UNTO YOU. People can live by that whether they believe in one God,many gods or no god. If everyone lived by that the world would be a better place no matter who believes what. I think that is one point we can both agree on.
by Child of Light; ; Report
Uhmm have you read all versions of catholic gospels? I guess no, judging from the information you provided, you're being taught what the church wants you to believe and control. There have been numerous wars in the name of religion and islamist terrorist groups operate in the name of god, historical wars and killings also give proof that religion or god made the wars and bad things happen. If you infact did read them all, I mean the other versions you'll realise how messed up this is.
You're saying wars are man made, but ultimately who made man? God I guess coming from religious education, highly faulty because Darwin explained the evolution scientifically. God is just a coping mechanism for most, and for control for other most.
by chavi☆; ; Report
Most of your points have already been covered by what I have already said so I’m not going to go back over old ground. However, if people obeyed God’s commandment against killing there would be no wars.
I don’t know why you feel that the evolution versus creationism thing comes into it because,apart from the fact it’s not relevant to the topic, I have not claimed that evolution is untrue. I’m not a creationist and only a minority of Christians (mostly fundamentalists) actually are creationists.
by Child of Light; ; Report
No, you haven't covered those topics already. People do wars in the name of god maybe because god is a sadist, and you're just following the blind faith.
by chavi☆; ; Report
People do wars and kill in the name of a God who said not to kill. They disobey God and claim to do so in his name. How is God to blame for that? Let’s put it another way. If I commit an armed robbery while loudly proclaiming that I do it in your name does that mean that you are to blame for it? Should you go to jail instead me? Obviously not.
by Child of Light; ; Report
If that's what I taught you then, yes. I should. The crusades were fought because that is what God taught. There are different versions of Christianity, I'm sure you haven't went through all of them.
by chavi☆; ; Report
The crusades were fought by people who perversely violated what Jesus taught while claiming to act in his name. There’s certainly many versions of supposed Christianity but true Christianity is about following what Jesus actually taught not doing your own thing and claiming that he taught it. I don’t need to look into all the versions of so called Christianity because the actual teachings of Jesus can be found in the four gospels. As I have already said I make a distinction between true Christians and those who distort Jesus’s teachings. If you want a clearer idea of what I actually believe please read my separate blog about some of the things I believe. I am completely with you in condemning the behaviour of so called Christians who wage war and commit other atrocities but I disagree with you about God being to blame because they are disobeying what Jesus actually taught.
by Child of Light; ; Report
kylar
babies with bone cancer can’t appreciate jack shit bro
The existence of terrible illnesses is an unfortunate,and all too often tragic, side effect of the imperfect world we live in. Such illnesses are random in who they strike and,sadly, they do sometimes strike innocent people including children and even babies. I wish I had a better answer to offer you but I don’t have all the answers. I don’t even claim to know all the questions.
by Child of Light; ; Report
so why make these statements if they’re clearly so easy to prove against?
by kylar; ; Report
You have proven nothing against. You have simply mentioned babies with bone cancer. I have acknowledged the tragic nature of such and stated that it’s random who gets such illnesses and sometimes it’s innocent people including children and even babies who get them. The randomness of who suffers serious illnesses is a fact albeit an uncomfortable fact. I have truthfully said that I don’t know all the answers but I don’t assume that because I don’t know the answers there are no answers. The fact that neither of us knows the answer doesn’t prove or disprove anything in either direction.
by Child of Light; ; Report
"While God could have created a perfect world inhabited by perfect people I believe that he wisely chose not to. The negative and bad things provide the contrast that makes it possible to appreciate the positive and good things thereby giving them meaning. Ugliness provides the contrast that makes beauty stand out. Sickness provides the contrast that makes us appreciate good health. The inevitability of death helps us appreciate the preciousness and sanctity of life." so how does this work for babies?? pretty sure they cant formulate whole thoughts much less the concept of lifes beauty, why would they be practically sent to death like this? i understand that you cant prove smack, but you gotta be reasonable if you wanna talk big on religion
by kylar; ; Report
Nowhere in my blog or my comments have I stated that babies can form thoughts and concepts. I said that babies who are afflicted with serious, and even deadly,illnesses are unfortunate because such illnesses are random in terms of who they affect. Could God intervene to heal them? I don’t know. If he could then why doesn’t he? Again I don’t know. I suspect that cases of God directly intervening,if at all,are extremely rare.
I do believe in an afterlife and I also believe that illnesses from this life don’t carry over into the next life. I don’t know what arrangements God has in place for the care of babies in heaven but they certainly will not be forsaken.
Just to clarify something on a more personal note. I don’t “talk big on religion “ because I am spiritual not religious. Religion is observing certain rituals and attending church neither of which I do because the churches are a mockery of everything Jesus taught.
by Child of Light; ; Report
Irissy <3
Couldn't you say the same if God was evil though? That he provides good to give a grasp of suffering. You're reasoning can cover both sides. God may only show good things so we know that suffering isn't just neutral. Called the Evil God theory.
Also, the saying of our deservance, for Eve betraying God before she knew it was wrong, and after following the serpant who told them the truth (that they will know good and evil, as if they didn't know before, connecting to how she couldn't have known it was wrong), so really the liar of the story was God in a way, because they did not die immediatley as they said, they were banished for eden and now everyone suffers for an innocent action.
Also, the insinuation that the world wouldv'e been perfect, without sufferance before Eve and Adam following the serpent, is false, as after Eve had bitten the apple God did not introduce suffering of childbirth, he worsened it (with the word multiplied), He had only multiplied the suffering. I cannot accept that I deserve punishment for an innocent mistake that was make a massive amount of time ago.
Now, I'm not an athiest per say, I just have questions that need answering.
Ok. I can see where you are coming from. If I was a fundamentalist who believes in the literal truth of Adam and Eve I would expect to have a hard time answering some of your points. To me Adam and Eve are an allegory not a reality. (I actually regard creationists the same way I regard flat earthers. Foolish,misguided and uninformed). I’m a Christian of the more positive and spiritual type rather than the narrow,judgmental fundamentalist type. (For a clearer picture of my beliefs see my blog Some of the things I believe). I believe in the overall message of the Bible without having to believe that every word of every verse of every chapter is literally true.
With regards to the question of God being good or evil. The most perfect revelation of God’s character can be seen in the life and teachings of Jesus. Much has been said about how the Bible,at various points,condones things like slavery,racism,sexism and homophobia and no honest person can pretend that away. I believe that the answer can be found in understanding that all other books in the Bible deal with characters who were swayed by the values of the society in which they lived and that their own prejudices influenced their teachings making only an imperfect revelation of God possible. In sharp contrast to this Jesus never says anything in favour of slavery,racism,sexism or homophobia. Also,his own behaviour suggests that he would not condone these things. He treated women as equals despite living in a society dominated by men. As for racism he mixed with people of other races in blatant violation of the Jewish social norm of rejecting people of other races. While Jesus doesn’t directly mention slavery he consistently sided with the poor and the underdog which would not be consistent with condoning slavery. Homophobia? Jesus never even mentioned homosexuality which suggests that he had no axe to grind against the gay community. To all of this may be added that Jesus summed his teachings up in the golden rule Do unto others as you would have them do unto you. He advocated for good not evil.
On a more personal note I can only say that God’s light entered my life at the worst point in my life and brought me hope when I was in despair. Also, an understanding that my suffering was not in vain but a preparation for being able to help relieve the suffering of others. Since then I have felt led by God to follow a path that will one day enable me to do exactly that.
I can’t really think of anything else to say.
by Child of Light; ; Report
I completley understand your view, I am sort of like an ex-christian, being that I questioned my beliefs and could find no answer that could explain why God could be just, all powerful, and all loving and firstly, not reveal himself to certain people based on geographical location (where you are born is a key detirminer of who you will follow), and why suffering, specificallt the suffering of animals exists. All the points you bring up make sense for humans, but why does the suffering of animals exist? I mean non-human caused suffering. It doesn't build character or morality, they don't from my knowledge, comprehend any religious or philosophical ideologies.
It doesn't make sense to me, when suffering exists outside of finding food. (Excessive suffering).
I really think Christianity, and all religion is beautiful, being love at their core, and I certainly haven't become a happier or more fulfilled individual when questioning my beliefs, but I cannot help it.
by Irissy <3; ; Report
I’m not sure how to answer your point about God revealing himself to people on the basis of location but I believe that God’s presence is primarily spiritual not intellectual and that his light exists in everyone. (Jesus said “The kingdom of heaven is within you). God’s light expresses itself through all good people no matter what they intellectually interpret it as. An interesting point is that the golden rule (Do unto others as you would have them do unto you) is found in the scriptures of all religions even from parts of the world that had no contact with each other. The golden rule can be followed by anyone no matter what else they do or don’t believe.
The suffering of animals,like human suffering, is an unfortunate, and all too often random, byproduct of an imperfect creation. Also, the desire to relieve suffering,both human and animal, is an opportunity to grow in compassion and also in knowledge as we seek cures for both human and animal illnesses.
Going back to a personal note again. I’m not sure how much of my story you have read in my bio and related blogs but I am no stranger to suffering having survived horrific abuse. It would be so easy for me to be angry and bitter and see it as all for nothing. I endured twelve weeks of horror suffering at the hands of truly evil people. Their cruelty is indeed pointless in and of itself but God can bring something better out of it. Because of the suffering I have been through I have a desire to relieve the suffering of others which is why,when I’m older, I intend to train as a child psychologist. As for the monsters who have abused me, and continue to abuse so many other kids, I have a choice between hatred and the more healing path of forgiveness. I choose the latter. Evil as these people are they are human beings and God has a purpose for them too. Any of them may yet repent of their evil ways and my prayer is that every one of them will one day be able to stand in God’s presence with their many sins completely forgiven.
Again I have reached the point where I can’t think of anything else to say other than taking the opportunity to thank you for your friend request which I am pleased to receive and accept.
by Child of Light; ; Report