I bet some people will hate me for this, but I'm here to try and defend the toothpaste flag. This might not seem very professional, but I'm working on this in school, and will/might update in the future.
First off
"The toothpaste flag is copying the lesbian flag!"
Okay and? A lot of flags do the same thing with other flags, yet you don't have a problem with it? A few examples:
Sapphic and Achillean
Demigirl and Demiboy
Pangender and Bigender
Pansexual and Polysexual
Omnisexual and Abrosexual
Transmasc and Transfem
And just in case you for some reason do not know, here are the lesbian (WLW) and gay (MLM) flags:
"The creator is racist!"
Separate the flag from the creator, it's just as easy as separating the art from the artist, or the music from the musician, it's not that hard. An example of people separating the flag from the creator is with the pansexual flag, the creator was problematic but a lot of people chose to separate the flag from the creator because what the creator did says nothing about the flag.
"The flag has no meaning!"
The creator may have not given the toothpaste flag a meaning, but others who use the toothpaste flag have given the flag a meaning.
Here is also a blog my friend, XxPuppy_BoyxX wrote on the situation
https://blog.spacehey.com/entry?id=535585
Here is also a document inside their blog, that also was created due to the situation (Document was created neither by XxPuppy_Boy or I, it was created by a user on Twitter):
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1Du2qO2wxdW3ZhJamGQygkDgdIfVUgYl1IhDHwqZBPWw/edit#gid=0
And also, note to twitter: stop telling toothpaste flag users to k*ll themselves. You aren't helping anybody.
IF THERE IS ANYTHING I HAVE LEFT OUT/HAVE FORGOTTEN, PLEASE LET ME KNOW -Dabloon
Thank you to everyone who's gotten this onto the top entries page, itmeans a lot knowing that more people will see this
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✘Scream Queen✘
I need people to be aware of something, flag discourse is one of the silliest things I have ever witnessed in our community. The fact others will shame somebody for using a flag used to show others about their attraction bc of some internet stuff is insane. No person outside of the online world, in the community actually really cares what flag you use.
The fact there are people claiming that if you use [insert flag here], you're a terrible person is utter insanity.
I need people to understand that not everybody may be educated on backgrounds and things adapt and CHANGE as time goes on.
Example: Pansexual was a term created by sigmund freud (the guy who says everybody wants to bang their mom) and he defined it as being attracted to "anything" including animals and children.
WE KNOW THAT IS NOT HOW PANSEXUALITY WORKS AND THE FACT PEOPLE USE THAT OLD DEFINITION BY A GUY WHO SAYS EVERYBODY WANTS TO BANG THEIR MOM IS CRAZY.
And for those who want to use that to fuel your panphobia: You're the problem and you're not any better than homophobic ppl on podcasts saying "gay people are mentally ill." You're a hypocrite if you want to tear down your own community bc ppl don't have the exact same experience as you.
Terms, ideas, and communities change. They adapt. They overcome. People need to understand this, as human, we change.
And y'know what, the flag has nothing to do w/ the creator. Just as pansexuality's term has nothing in common w/ the guy who invented the word. Separate, understand how to be critical w/out ruining other ppl's self esteem.
History is important to know, as well as queer history. It's incredibly important to know how damaging this whole colour/flag discourse is to our community.
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exactly
by Zombie_boy; ; Report
True
by Zombie_boy; ; Report
I had a conversation w/ somebody else and I wanted to add as much as I learned about the controversy and context to this flag that way ppl can come to their own conclusions or do their own research
According to my research, the ocean/toothpaste flag was created by Mod Hermy on the Tumblr blog Ask-Pride-Color-Schemes. The original concept for the flag was hijacked by truscum/transmed people who turned it into an anti NB and anti trans. That hijacked post got incredibly popular and circulated as they claim to have "created" the flag. The actual creator came forward to say that their flag has and always will include NB folks and trans folks.
Some lesbians say they don't like it only because it's a carbon copy of their flag (as an anon on DA suggested for it to be related to colour scheme wise) and it furthers the stereotype that blue = boys and pink = girls. In defense of the ocean flag, that claim also means the lesbian flag furthers that stereotype and should be subjected to the same criticism only to be fair. As for the claim the flag has no meaning, according to the creator it does. In order for the top to bottom it goes; community, inclusion, she/her pronoun gays (pronouns=/=gender let me be clear), GNC/NB/trans men, ace/aro and split attraction gays, love and attraction, and the last one being diversity.
As for the racism claim, that one didn't sit right with me, as I am firmly a believer to NOT attack anybody for their choice in flag if the flag literally doesn't further harmful things such as racism. According to the blog on Tumblr, that anti black flag was not one they created. This is where things get confusing; according to one source, they were trying to find information on this discourse and found out that somebody else on twitter made a thread where they claim people were calling them racist because the twitter folks were mistaking them for the mod (Hermy) on the Tumblr blog. They tried to reverse image search it but none of the results ever lead back to that Tumblr blog the actual original ocean/toothpaste flag came from. The response to that from the Tumblr blog was that they never created any anti black or any race related flags. They proposed that since their ocean/toothpaste flag was stolen by exlusionists already that it's a possibility that somebody else may have stolen the flag and created that anti black/race related pride flag and that got connected back to the Tumblr blog as that's where the original flag was from.
Now I want to make it clear, that there are more than one of these flags being used and the one being linked to the creator supporting bi-lesbians is a different person alltogether and that flag was made in 2017. The ocean/toothpaste flag more commonly used nowadays was created in 2020. The problem some people claim they see with this one was that it's just an adaptation of the original 2017 more problematic one. Which, again, if we were to be fair on both sides of the conversation, the same could be said for the sunset lesbian flag as it is an adaptation of the lipstick lesbian flag which was abandoned for it's problematic roots in the creator (McCray) making incredibly bigoted comments that rooted for bigotry against bisexuals and trans women.
In conclusion, the history of these flags is very confusing and many bigoted people in our own community like to steal things and claim them as their own in order to hurt others. I personally do not use the ocean/toothpaste flag but I think it's incredibly important to be aware of the entire history and discourse surrounding it. Whatever people do with this comment is completely up to them wether they support the flag or want to use a different flag. At the end of the day, we're all human, and as long as nobody is directly hurting somebody or trying to hurt people w/ bigotry; we shouldn't attack each other for what colours we use and if we choose to use them.
Let me quickly add the sources I used while going on this deep dive
A Horniman Lesbian Flag
Anon asking about racism claims and mod answers
The History of the Vincian
Creators clearing up some conterversies
Lesbian flag: The history, origins, meaning and symbolism
by ✘Scream Queen✘; ; Report
rae ☆
dont forget the fact the "toothpaste" flag was made an entire year before the lesbian flag was. this is exactly like in last june where people in the lesbian community were planning a "lesbian takeover" during pride month. they really need to get over themselves, they arent the only sexuality that exists
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liberian commando
By no means should it have been let grow to this point.
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:: trixie toxxic ::
FLAG DISCOURSE SUX >:[
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rookie ☆
thank u so much for this post.. flag discourse is some of the silliest things ive seen in recent times. as long as the colours look cool and the flag doesn't have a bad meaning i'll accept it..its just stripes anyways xD
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vin<3
the only people complaining about how the lesbian and gay flag are non lesbians and non gay people ive had multiple lesbian friends say they like we match i personally think its rlly sweet we match espesially when u have matching pfps w ur friends its cool!
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profily
prefacing this by saying i dont care about the flag discourse and im going to say something entirely unrelated. the bigender flag used in this post is made by a transphobic pedophile/abuser, i really suggest not including it here if you're trying to make a point.
and in case you're uninformed here is a more inclusive one not made by a horrible person
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holy shit im bigender and i never knew this :0
i'll make sure to use the other one now, thank you for commenting this !
by StonielΘΔ; ; Report
THE ▌ᴀᴛҠӀИԌ▐ OF SPACEHEY
only semi related but i prefer to use the original (pi) poly flag.
sure it's garish (if you use the REALLY old version) but it's existed for a long time, longer than most other lgbtq+ flags, and 'garishness' isn't a good reason to scrap it. there are slight modifications (less intense colour pallette) to the flag to make it less garish
sry just a nitpick ahaa
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Moru
i'm gonna have to break this to you, nobody cares about this outside the internet
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xXxValentinexXxVenomxXx
What is the toothpaste flag and what is it for? Also instead of arguing over lines on a screen maybe find smth better to do? Smh yall are bored atp
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Nikita
I like generally don't give a fuck about flag discourse although I'm pretty sure people did have issues with both the term achillean and its flag back in the day. It's been a few years though so I'm not sure
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ive seen some people still hate on it and idk why,,,, like such a silly hill to die on
by StonielΘΔ; ; Report
Stuffie The Goddess Of Spuddling
I'm sorry but what does the flag stand for exactly? Like what sexuality/gender does it represent here? And what does it mean/gen. I'm genuinely asking here. I don't I'm trying not to judge or anything until afterwards.
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Its the flag for gay men or people who like men/non-woman
by Zombie_boy; ; Report
scarcrossed
the lesbian flag changes when the og creator turns shit. same with creators of other flags. you guys just hate lesbians and people of colour. like be serious.
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also the lesbian flag is not the WLW flag!!! this is so lesbophobic it’s sick.
by scarcrossed; ; Report
God, did you read anything I've said? And how did you come to the idea that I hate POC and lesbians?
by Xenogender_Hoard; ; Report
So the flag I use automatically makes me racist and lesbophobic? tf-
by RATTICUS 🌈🦋 (REDOING PROFILE !!); ; Report
yeah get a new one there are so many alternatives but this one is only liked because it’s controversial
by scarcrossed; ; Report
Only liked cause it’s controversial?? The fuck does that mean-
by RATTICUS 🌈🦋 (REDOING PROFILE !!); ; Report
let me tell you a short story.
ever since the rainbow flag added a black stripe to represent people of colour, racist white gays started crawling out of the shadows to make new ones. before this, gay men were more-than okay to use the rainbow. many new flags for gay men were purposed, but then the lesbian flag recolour one started blowing up. the person who made the ‘toothpaste’ flag (recolour) allegedly happened to be a huge racist who also made flags for gays only attracted to certain races. the creator of that flag is also alleged to be a huge lesbophobe. this is why many lesbians called out the flag, and due to lesbians calling it out, it has gained huge popularity. many lesbians will still fall out this flag (like me) and then be shut down, because the public opinion on lesbians has seemed to go 100 years back in time for whatever reason. nobody takes us seriously.
by scarcrossed; ; Report
the op here says to separate the art from the artist, but look at the lesbian community. why have we changed our flag so many times? because the creators of old flags would turn out to be transphobes or have their flag claimed by transphobes. the ‘toothpaste’ stuff just feels like when transphobes purpose a lesbian flag for transphobia, except it’s for gay men, and lesbophobia.
sure, some lesbians don’t care, but for a lot of lesbians and especially lesbians of colour, it’s super uncomfortable.
by scarcrossed; ; Report
i was around the community while most of this happened. it literally became popular because of posts like ‘lol lesbians are so sensitive’.
by scarcrossed; ; Report
cheers.
by scarcrossed; ; Report
“That’s clearly what they’re trying to say” did you actually read anything they said? Or did you just skip over it and assume what they said
by RATTICUS 🌈🦋 (REDOING PROFILE !!); ; Report
the lesbian flag changes when the og creator turns shit. same with creators of other flags. you guys just hate lesbians and people of colour. like be serious.
some fuckin leap in logic there.
PSA: "the f/f (or m/m) flag creator was racist" is not adequate reasoning for "anyone who uses these flags is racist" (and yes, that IS what this comment was trying to say, very clearly so)
tumblr figured out this shit years ago. most flag discourse today has been SETTLED, we DON'T care, stop trying to revive it.
by THE ▌ᴀᴛҠӀИԌ▐ OF SPACEHEY; ; Report
i don’t think my logic is flawed. i’ve never been on tumblr. i don’t know if you know this but tumblr is not the king of lesbians or whatever. Blue is for boys, Pink is for girls, Lesbian and Gay people have similar experiences, blah blah blah. is that what the tumblr conclusion was? think on that
by scarcrossed; ; Report
corinth
flag discourse is just about the most unserious thing i have ever witnessed. it's a FLAG. it looks pretty :)
putting the creator over the representation of the community is completely useless and ruins the entire point. why are we interpreting a flag as a representation of the creator and the drama around it rather than the community it's supposed to represent? be real.
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Happy IRL
I LOVE FLAG DISCORSE GRAAAHHHHHH!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!/j (I almost misspelled that without the L oh my god)
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RATTICUS 🌈🦋 (REDOING PROFILE !!)
80 KUDOS!!!!
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RATTICUS 🌈🦋 (REDOING PROFILE !!)
SO CLOSE TO THE TOP LETS FUCKING GOO >:DDDDD
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Zombie_boy
ITS ON THE POPULAR BLOGS PAGE LETS GO PEOPLE!! /pos
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LET"S GET IT TO THE TOP
by RATTICUS 🌈🦋 (REDOING PROFILE !!); ; Report
jolenethekitty
oh my good golly gosh
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?
by RATTICUS 🌈🦋 (REDOING PROFILE !!); ; Report
ThatOneEmo1234
SPREAD THIS TO EVERONE THIS NEEDS TO BE SHARED
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