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Someone wrote a blog post here recently in which it was claimed that God chose to create a universe which is imperfect, or words to that effect. Such an idea is patently untrue and, in fact, it's quite easy to demonstrate so.
First, it's a given that perfection exists. We can conceive a perfect circle, even if in reality there is no such a thing. Therefore, perfection exists (even if, perhaps, just in our minds). However, if there is such a thing as an instance of perfection, then there must be absolute perfection as well. Otherwise, how could an instance of perfection exist if perfection itself, that is, perfection understood separately (which is what I mean by "absolute perfection") doesn't? One could argue that a concept or thing that is naturally a being of adnominal character (that is, an adjective) draws part of the character of its existence from the modification of another being (that is, a noun), having no value in itself whatsoever. However, it still must exist in itself, for if it doesn't exist in itself, it cannot exist adnominally or subordinately. Whenever a being presents itself to us as something dependent on another being, we'll always be able to conceive it as an independent being simply because it is a different being than the being on which it depends, that is, simply because it exists as a distinct entity. This distinctiveness allows us to conceive the object as a thing in itself, and if the object can be conceived as such, it exists as such, even if, perhaps, only in our minds.
So absolute perfection exists, even if, perhaps, only in our minds. Now, I ask, what is perfect in this world? Apparently nothing. Could any empirically knowable thing be perfect? Patently not. What would a perfect house look like? How would a perfect man be? I suppose a perfect man, being perfect, would naturally be endowed with perfect height, and how tall would this perfect man be? It's impossible to tell. But - we ought to ask -, if nothing is perfect, how come we know perfection, how come we know (as we've seen) that perfection does indeed exist as an independently knowable thing? The answer is simple and complex at the same time: we know perfection exists because "somewhere" in the universe it - perfection - exists, otherwise we wouldn't be able to know of its existence. Then where does it exist - we once again ought to ask? This is where it gets complex. The universe itself is perfect.
That's "where" perfection exists. Suppose some god-like being would say our universe is imperfect because here people suffer and die horrible deaths, so this god removes suffering and horrible deaths from existence. Would our universe now be "perfect"? Absolutely not. Would our universe now be at least a step closer to "perfection"? Also not - we cannot know what such a "perfect" universe would even look like, much less say what makes our universe resemble it more closely rather than not. Even if suffering and horrible deaths had never existed at all - not even that -, the universe still wouldn't be closer to being "perfect" at all.
The conclusion, therefore, is that the universe itself is perfect. Being perfect is an attribute of what is whole, all-encompassing, eternal and infinite. And eternity, infinity and wholeness, by their own nature, encompass not only what is good but also what is (apparently) evil and wicked. It's all wrapped by the envelope of supreme goodness, which is existence itself.
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Fazumi
Girls Last Tour spotted :D
feral boy Jamara
I suspect that you are referring to my blog What I believe about why God lets bad things happen. I’m not going over everything I said in my post but you admit that the place perfection exists is in our mind and not as an objective reality. God gave us the ability to conceive of perfection as a motivator for us to seek improvement and growth. Where perfection already exists there’s no further scope for growth or improvement.
Honestly, I don't remember which post was it that prompted mine. Anyway, it doesn't matter. What's important is that you have, I'm afraid, misunderstood me. I didn't say that perfection exists only in our minds; I said that perhaps it does, meaning that that is a defensible and logical position. There is much more that could be said regarding this matter, and I purposefully left a lot out for the sake of brevity, but if there is one thing that I would add, it's this: I equate God with the universe (in the most absolute sense) and, to me, that is the only logically conceivable way that God could exist, that is, as transcendent immanence rather than as a personality in the sky. And if the universe is perfect, then so is God (and vice-versa). In fact, if God is perfect (and He must be, for to be God is to be perfect), then He wouldn't ever create an imperfect universe, because it's in the nature of perfection to generate only perfection (as a perfect thing that generates an imperfect thing when a perfect thing could very well be created wouldn't even be perfect in the first place). Consequently, our universe is perfect. If it seems imperfect, this imperfection is only an appearance; it's not of the essence, and it only seems so because our limited minds cannot understand, to use a figure of speech, "God's plan". In other words, the reasons that you (if it was you) presented corroborate not the fact that the universe is imperfect, but that it's perfect, and you yourself (again, if it was you) almost reached the same conclusion when you finished by saying, as St. Augustine did, centuries before you, that a universe where evil exists is better than one where it doesn't because, in such a universe, we are endowed with free will. Do you not see that all of this points to the fact that the universe is perfect, rather than imperfect? I sincerely await your response, and I shall be cordial, as I have been, should you wish to proceed with this discussion.
by Preuss; ; Report
I think,perhaps,that rather than being perfect in it’s present state that the universe is evolving ever nearer to perfection. While I believe that God is distinct from the universe I do agree that the idea of God as a man in the sky is nonsense. God is infinite and therefore can’t have any form because form defines limits and boundaries and that which is infinite can have no form or boundaries.
by feral boy Jamara; ; Report
I suppose the idea that the universe is striving for perfection could make sense outside of ex nihilo creation, but if God created the universe from nothing, as Christian doctrine states, it wouldn't make much sense for it to be imperfect, would it? Personally, I don't believe in ex nihilo creation (I don't even believe that God created the universe, as, if there is a God, It must be, so to speak, the universe itself), and if the universe is indeed striving for perfection, then this perfection can only be God Himself, and if He exists, then, being part of the universe, at least a part of the universe must be perfect. Regardless of how you look at it, perfection has to be somewhere, not just as a remote state of affairs but as something actually existing.
by Preuss; ; Report
To avoid making this reply excessively long I refer you to my blog about why God lets bad things happen for a statement of why God would create an imperfect universe. Imperfect and with the scope for,and possibility of,growth and development. God does indeed do everything perfectly including imperfection. He created the universe with the perfect mixture of perfection and potential. A perfectly imperfect universe.
by feral boy Jamara; ; Report
I meant to say “the perfect mixture of perfection,imperfection and potential “.
by feral boy Jamara; ; Report
But if the universe is perfectly imperfect, then how come it has potential for improvement? What is perfect cannot be improved upon, not even what is perfectly imperfect. Clarify this point for me.
by Preuss; ; Report
The possibility of improving is what makes it perfectly imperfect. Had there been no possibility of improving that would have created the same stasis as total perfection.
by feral boy Jamara; ; Report
In other words, perfection exists as the possibility of striving to be closer to God (and as God Himself, presumably), and that is why the universe is perfectly imperfect: because in it we have the free will to strive to be closer to Him or to reject Him outright. But without knowing the possibility of this rejection, how could we even know the possibility of embracing Him and striving to be closer to Him? These two things are dialectical pairs; one is impossible without the other. We cannot know what it means to follow the correct path if we don't know what constitutes following the wrong one. Such is why, in my opinion, when all things are considered, and in the grand scheme of things, the universe is not relatively perfect but absolutely perfect. Perhaps this amounts merely to semantics, but of all the possible qualifications that can be assigned to the universe, the worst of all would be to say that the universe is wicked and that existence is evil. It is logical to say that the universe is amoral, good, perfect, or even that it is perfectly imperfect - all of these things are in fact the same and comprise the universe's perfection. What cannot be reasonably said, though, is that it is not good, not neutral, but outright evil. That would just be a plain lie.
by Preuss; ; Report
Bly
I think you'd find a lot of joy in studying Leibniz's Best of all Possible Worlds, which echoes much of what you just said.
Leibniz was a great philosopher indeed, one that was somewhat wronged by future criticism.
by Preuss; ; Report