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DISCLAIMERS:
I DO SUPPORT vegetarian and vegan people, but it NEEDS to be criticized like any other movement.
This post is made on the context of my country (Brazil) and some things might be different on other, more developed countries!
if you have anything to add or argue against, please do i want to expand my opinion on the debate.
ill use v for vegtarian or vegan bc i dont want it to be too long
ik nobody asked me shit ok
ok starting
Firstly, I believe that making this ecological discourse is NOTHING without class counsciousness. tf u talking about being wrong consuming animal products if like... MOST CHEAP THINGS ARE ANIMAL PRODUCTS (not necessarily meat). Do you really think people can afford having vegan proteins, vegetable milk or anything of the sort? no they cant. being v is a HELL of a privilege.
I knew a friend who was a REALLY passionate v, and actually believed the movement. But she had to leave it because she was fricking ANEMIC, for not having any other reliable source for proteins, some really important minerals, etc, for being POOR.
And I see a LOT of videos of vs guiltrtripping people into the movement... like... ITS NOT PEOPLE'S FAULT. You can't blame people for eating food. Blame the Agro. Blame the huge industries that produce too much then throw millioins of kilos of food away every year.
EXAMPLE: Idk if that happened in other countries, but here in brazil, milk companies are buying their own milk back from markets and putting new tags on them. We are drinking old milk. And do you REALLY think it's peopole's fault???????? do you think its the average consumer that makes companies torture animals for making ABSURD amounts of useless food? not useless, but food that wont feed anyone?
it TIRES ME OUT. you are being part of the problem when you do that. I FIND ADMIRABLE, i really do, that people can use their wealth to diminish the meat consumerism and boycott those industries, but you cant blame people for not being able to. you are just being a jerk. Before trying to fight, understad what you're fighting for.
ANYWAYS, i know that a lot of people INDEED overconsume meat and animl products, but thats not the reality of most. BUT, the average citizen cant control how their food is made. You get my point'? its sad, but we are just another product, just like those animals
i hope my point is understood! i might edit that tho
Comments
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amelia !!
As a vegetarian, it's more a bout the people who have a choice. Obviously, if you're poor or have a medical issue, it's out of your control and you need to eat what will keep you alive and well. For me personally, it's the act that's immoral and if I had it my way, no one would have access to meat in the first place. The people who have a choice, know what's going on in the industries and just don't care are the problem.
Ryanne
Hey, I wanna add my perspective here. Just to clarify, I’m not vegetarian or vegan myself, but my closest reference is my sister. Through her, I’ve learned a lot about the movement, the lifestyle, and the realities behind it.
Starting with the price difference. Vegan products are more expensive, not because companies or farmers *want* them to be, but because they’re still relatively new products compared to animal-based ones. That means more money spent on research and development, lower market demand for now, higher-quality ingredients, and less mass production. Animal-based products, on the other hand, have been around forever — they’ve had decades of subsidies, don’t require major innovation to release “new” products, often rely on cheap ingredients, and are produced on a massive scale, usually through intensive farming systems that don’t respect the natural lifespan or wellbeing of animals.
Being vegan doesn’t automatically mean you’re healthy just because you eat fruits and vegetables. If your friend had anemia, it was probably because he wasn’t getting enough nutrients. That’s not the vegan movement’s fault — it’s the fault of people who don’t properly inform themselves or don’t know how to manage their diet correctly. If you’re low on iron: legumes (lentils, chickpeas, soybeans, etc.), nuts, seeds (chia, pumpkin, flax...), spinach, swiss chard... If you need Omega3: sesame seeds, flax, chia, walnuts, microalgae, etc.
The only thing vegans actually need to supplement is vitamin B12. And what is B12? It’s a nutrient our bodies can’t produce on their own and… surprise, animals can’t either. It comes from bacteria found in soil and grass. Herbivorous animals naturally consume it, but nowadays, since most farms are intensive and animals are kept indoors, those animals are supplemented too. So when people say “vegans have to supplement everything,” not really. In fact, if you eat meat because “you need B12,” there’s a very high chance that B12 was supplemented to the animal first so you could get it indirectly. Kinda ironic tbh.
Anyway, I got a bit sidetracked lol, but my point is that a vegan can’t survive on fries and rice alone. You still need a balanced diet. And honestly, a huge number of elite athletes and professional sportspeople are vegan and have been absolutely crushing it for years.
If someone chooses to be vegan, of course they can complain about prices — but for them, there’s no real alternative. Veganism isn’t some luxury trend; it’s an ethical movement focused on wellbeing. If you can’t handle hearing that, maybe there’s something to reflect on. Not saying this as an attack btw, more as a way to improve and think critically.
(And no, I’m not talking about you personally xd)
I enjoyed talking about this with someone :))
Okay, this has MANY layers. I think you're not mad at my post since you addressed wrong stuff I haven't said.. I never said it's the farmer's fault. It is AGRO'S fault. The Agro is the HUGE industries that produce these stuff, not farmers. (Indeed they are produced in farms but the owners of the Agro are NOT farmers) . Small businesses and properties are different from mass produced, as you said. But, in fact, I disagree with you in the terms of industries not wanting vegan products to be expensive, I think they do, since v are another parcel of consuming public that would pay more. (It doesn't mean the products aren't new, both things can be true that last part was just an opinion)
Also I think it's not very empathetic to blame someone with ANEMIA because of not having SAID FOODS ACESS for the illness she has. And saying that just to justify your sayings that I am blaming the movement... I'm not even doing that, honestly. I'm saying it is NOT affordable to everyone. And you can't deny that. Indeed I think that was an unhappy paragraph you wrote..
Actually, the critic I'm making is about >>>>SOME<<<<< v's we see on social media that guilttrip people that leave and make those people feel ashamed and disappointed with themselves. But I really didn't thought I had to say that SOME, because it's pretty implicit.
Notice how you said elite athletes and preffesional sportspeople? They have money to suplement wathever and have acess to the natural sources such as these nuts and various veggies. It is healthy to be v and people don't need meat to survive, but they need more resources. If it's hard for people to eat healthy WITHOUT being part, imagine being?
About the last paragraph.. you still put words inside my mouth. I said it's a privilege. Not luxury, not a trend. And that "no alternative" is crazy to me, since one's wellbeing should come before ANY other cause... if they can't pay they should.. starve? (Idk if I interpreted it correctly I really hope I didnt)
I honestly reflected about the reply, but it haven't really got me.
My post is a marxist view of how I see the issues of SOMEEE vegans blaming people for not being a part of the movement instead of criticizing what makes the whole thing NECESSARY (which is the super exploration of resources, animals and people by big corporations). AS I SAID IN THE LAST PARAGRAPH, I ADMIRE THE VEGAN AND VEGETARIAN MOVEMENT AND ITS SUPER OKAY AND HEALTHY!!!!!.
That also was not an attack! I hope u understand it.
by XxXd4MaD9EdLuV3rXxX; ; Report
No, I’m not mad about the post at all, I was just sharing my point of view. Thanks for reply :)
About the first thing: yeah, I mixed up the term “AGRO.” It was like 2am when I was reading everything and I misunderstood it. But that still doesn’t change the fact that some vegan companies DO NOT want their products to have crazy high prices. For example, Heura genuinely tries to make their food accessible to as many people as possible, and they don’t rely on fake marketing or trying to look “exclusive.” They constantly have discounts, and honestly, you can tell the price reflects the quality if you really think it’s that expensive. Like I said before, these companies have existed for way less time than the meat industry, which is why they still invest heavily in research and development, among other things.
And no, I’m not blaming someone for having anemia. I’m “blaming” them for blaming an entire type of diet that doesn’t magically function on its own. Like, if I ran a marathon without training properly, got physically destroyed afterward, and then blamed the marathon for all my problems… bro. I do have empathy, and I’m sorry your friend had to go through that, but if the anemia happened because they didn’t know how to eat properly, then that’s a personal issue, not veganism’s fault. That doesn’t mean I’m pointing fingers and calling them stupid either. I don’t know exactly what your friend did or didn’t do, but in most cases, that’s usually the reason.
And regarding people who can’t stay vegan because of health issues, I honestly have nothing against that. It sucks, but maybe one day, if they want to, they’ll be able to go back to it. I actually know one of my sister’s friends who’s currently in that process.
And c’mon girl, being vegan IS expensive sometimes, but it’s not AS expensive as you’re making it sound. There are literally thousands of vegan recipes where a serving costs under 2 dollars. I’m from Spain, and prices here keep going up every single month, but compared to products like meat or fish, plant-based ingredients are still way cheaper overall. You definitely don’t need to be a millionaire to be vegan fr, unless you’re dealing with extreme poverty.
And about the last paragraph: yeah, I think you misunderstood me there too. You’re obviously not going to starve just because you stop eating animals. But when someone is vegan, eating animals simply doesn’t even cross their mind anymore, because they genuinely see animals for what they are: another living being. If you don’t see it that way, then maybe what you want is just a healthy diet, not veganism itself. That’s it.
And just to clarify: I’m not angry or offended. I know we simply have different perspectives, and I tend to express my opinions in a more critical/direct way. and I KNOW your are NOT vegan, it's okay.
by Ryanne; ; Report
fishyfishycatfish
Well yes, your arguments make sence, however, you're missing one key detail. Most ppl who arent vegan arent exactly doing it because they WISH THEY COULD SO MUCH BUT JUST CAN'T BECAUSE THEY POOR AND CAN ONLY AFFORD MACDONALDS. Most ppl, just don't care. There are alternatives. Like, eating LESS meat. The average American(im not American but using as an example) eats WAY TOO MUCH ANIMAL PRODUCT. To the point where it's damaging their health. I think most vegans arent asking for people to COMPLETELY get rid of meat and if you dont - you're evil. They're asking people to speak out, eat less animal, buy from local ethical farmers. It's not about the meat itself, it's about how profitable it is for the corporations to sell it. Theyd sell human meat if ppl bought it. Would you eat humans if that was all you could afford?
I'm not vegan btw, I'm a work in progress, but I do argue in favor of it in every way.
by fishyfishycatfish; ; Report
Ok, i see what youre getting to, but do you think the average working class person wouldnt like to eat healthier if they could. i mean. yes. thats what im saying dude.. you are kinda missing the point. YES, THY PORBABLY WOULD EAT BETTER AND CONSUME LESS MEAT IF THEY COULD. I, as a person that will be in working class when im older and interacts only with those people (probably just like you) see that most of the time, when we speak about nutrition, its people saynig "oh, the rice is expensive. Oh, we are eating poison with our lettuce. If i was born rich and eating organic, i'd be skinnier" we see this A LOT. it might not be that people WANT TO BE VEGAN, but they would definetly eat less meat, because they want to be healthy. you see the problem isnt the "average person" but capitalism? its like saying "YOU ARE THE REASON THE WATER IS ENDING!!!" to a person that takes a shower longer than 15 minutes.
by XxXd4MaD9EdLuV3rXxX; ; Report
i dont mean mea ti mean animal product ugh ut u undersand
by XxXd4MaD9EdLuV3rXxX; ; Report
Well to your argument I would only say that we spend our time around VASTLY different people (o_O). For me, I only know people that would eat MORE meat if they had more money. Vegans are kind of misscharacterised everywhere im afraid. Everyone claims that vegans are so strict with their rules and shun you for the smallest mistake in their superior lifestyle, while I've personally never had a vegan do anything more than quietly order a vegan pizza while hanging out. I feel like the "mots vegans claim their lifestyle iš better" came from most peoples internalised guilt. Deep down they know that factory farms is hell for anymals but instead of realising that it's their conscious talking people claim that "it's the vegans making them feel bad".
by fishyfishycatfish; ; Report
I don't believe that if people were wealthier they would eat less meat. Statistically - people from wealthier countries eat WAY more meat. Meat is the standard for luxury even if the luxury comes in the form of a mc'chicken. I think we forget that often.
by fishyfishycatfish; ; Report
... ok how many burgoises you know. we know vastly different people. but they are mostly from working class, being weathier or not. AND if you read my post, you see im not mischaracterizing anyone. If you want to, i can send all the links of the videos from actual vegans saying those things. im not inventing people. Vegans dont make (at least me) FEEL BAD, because i know their point is valid. and it is. Christ, be vegan. it is true, ieel terrible for the animals. that conversation wont work for me.
(about 2nd comment) Do you really think McChiken is a luxury? Yes, it might be that its getting more expensve, like any meat, but do you see you are refuting your own words? "Most ppl who arent vegan arent exactly doing it because they WISH THEY COULD SO MUCH BUT JUST CAN'T BECAUSE THEY POOR AND CAN ONLY AFFORD MACDONALDS." and now you say that... its quite funny how things change accordingly to your will to argument. If you say something, stand through the end. About it being a luxury, you realize that its just the illusion of it. Ok, you cannot be very poor and eat mcdonalds all the time, especially in underdeveloped countries, but privilege isnt luxury. Luxury is eating caviar. its eating lamb. you see the difference? what is offered to WORKERS (extremely dubious meat made from suffering) and to actual rich people (took from (mostly) more cared for animals). You reverse the discourse completely. Health is expensive. Way more than any McDonald's sandwich. And people with MINIMAL sense want it. Ill be sharing some studies/essays links for you, because i'm actually basing my opinions.
https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0306919225000533
https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC9461400/#Sec18
https://www.ifpri.org/blog/high-price-healthy-food-and-low-price-unhealthy-food/
now- if you think any of this consists on people wating mcdonald's, we can end that ocnversation here.
And if you will not accept any arguments and just distort/ignore what im saying (because i cant see you actually responding to things i say logically) i dont even know why you are arguing.
by XxXd4MaD9EdLuV3rXxX; ; Report
I can see you're getting a little angry. It's not my intention to make you feel that way :(. I know my facts might seem muddled but I'm not making stuff up.
https://ourworldindata.org/data-insights/people-in-richer-countries-tend-to-eat-more-meat
That's a link for an article that shows the connection between richer countries and more meat consumption.
https://plantbasednews.org/news/alternative-protein/plant-based-proteins-cheaper-than-meat/
That ones about how plant-based protein is falling in price while meat is growing.
My claim is that most people don't actually want to be vegan, it's not the problem of how much money they make.
As for the mc'chicken stuff, I just wanted to highlight that what might seems like cheap food in our country is actually a sign of our economic uhhh size? Growth? My whole argument is that it's a culture and overconsumption problem basically. A lot of the meat that's bought gets thrown away but that's besides the point.
Saying that a lot of people simply can't be vegan is true, saying that most people WANT to be vegan is untrue.
I'm sorry if I came across unclear. :( is there anything else I should clarify?
by fishyfishycatfish; ; Report
im sorry i was kinda rude. im really lol.
ur also from brazil? we can sepak portuguese if u wanna it may be easier (bc u said our country sorry im confusedd)
Well, unfortunately i wasn't able to open the second essay because the page errors for some reason, but i think the fact of being easier to achieve meat in example, usa, is the fact that the industries are more proeaminent. there is a relation of import>exportation (ex: In brazil, ""natural porducts"" are more accesible because we have more agro to EXPORT, an for processed we need to import it, and the other way around to countries with +industry -agro.)
I'm sorry, but i tried the most to clarify in ig the fisrt answer that i am is that there wouldnt be ANY rpoblem with people eating meat if 1) everyone had the same, approppriate portions and 2)if the right amounts of meat were made. It would be better for us and for the animals, and for the ecosystem too. But i think that got kinda implicit, too, so i wanted to make it clearer.
We face different options every day, and everyone should chose for the less harming ones. But, as you highlighted, many people dont have a large range to chose from. I got too radical but in the end that what was i was trying to say. I still dont think the people are the problem, but they surely can help in that matter.
I just didnt think it was fair for you to say " A lot of the meat that's bought gets thrown away but that's besides the point", because its an actual rpoblem, we could even make a parallel with the fast fashion clothes being thown into Chile deserts or something. Animals end up dying for literally nothing.
But i'm happy you clarified! I again apologize for being rude/irraconal, i got kinda stuck in the mcdonalds thing, i think we agree in disagreeing with this part.
by XxXd4MaD9EdLuV3rXxX; ; Report
In the end, these matters depend A LOT on the ocuntexts of our areas, so its hard to make a default.
by XxXd4MaD9EdLuV3rXxX; ; Report