For a long time, i have begun to observe patterns that are common, around us, as humans. We, as individuals, often seek a purpose for existence, despite the absence of one, since there isnt one nor not will be. People desire something to celebrate each day and a reason to continue living their miserable lives. One of the most significant things that keeps many of us grounded on earth is religion and faith. Personally, i find the belief in something that we cannot see, feel, hear, or touch to be irrational. Humans who believe in god and attribute positive things in their lives to him are often either heavily self suggested, experiencing self fulfilling prophecies, or engaging in extreme confabulation. God not only instills a false sense of hope that things will improve, but he also makes them fear. Believing in god implies the existence of a being who will judge you after death, checking whether you were good enough and whether you accepted his commandments. Does this not create fear? Fear of death and judgment? Fear of committing transgressions and being doomed for life? Take islam as an example, though similar situations happen in other religions as well. Numerous muslim women live in fear of the consequences they may face after death for actions that their allah would disapprove of, such as removing the hijab or failing to dress how he wants. For me, it would be depressing to lead a life where fear is the primary motivator for my well being. This thing is not exclusive to islam; it also happens in christianity, which is often portrayed in a positively. I, to be honest, find it absurd that a "sin" like blasphemy could be called unforgivable. If god truly exists and has genuine love for humanity, would he not extend forgiveness? And, if god truly exists, why would he allow innocent humans to suffer in wars, conflicts, and other forms of violence?? Religious people live as slaves in fear.
I agree, 100%!! It's simply so silly to believe in something so OBVIOUSLY made up. Take a look at how any religion was started and it's very clear they were made up, either to usurp power (usually to usurp power) or because people didn't have better explanations for things like natural phenomenas or, as you've stated, wanting there to be a purpose. Religious folk ALWAYS wakt you to look at their side, to read their religious texts, to engage in a million and two debates and always consider everything they say but it's just so stupid?? Like, all power to you I guess but surely you have to understand how false all that sounds. I was raised Christian so I can make the comnection there. How was it started? Some guy claimed to be the son of God and performed miracles, in the end he was brought back from the dead. Cool! Source??? The source is one book. One book that claims pretty extreme, magical things. No other, unbiased outside sources mention anything about Jesus' miracles or resurrection. Oh but other sources do mention people like Jesus! Okay, so possible he or many people like him existed. That is people that preached to be the son of God or claimed to do miracles. There's no other sources for those deeds. Not to mention how the Bible wasn't written WHEN all that was happening but decades later when the so-called son of God was dead already. Any other sources??? Well everyone says it's true. Okay, any other sources??????? Well Jesus will come back. Source? No, nothing??? Well I will certainly burn in Hell for my sins. The source is that people say so. Oh purgatory is a thing, right? Source is a literal made up story by this funny guy called Dante. Right, many many things believed today and preached as truth have been written as basically Bible fanfics. Suddenly they're true becuase???????? Oh and Jesus only came down to Earth now, 2000 years ago, despite the tens of thousands of years humans have existed before. Why didn't he come before? Oh because they hadn't made him up yet. Like, you can have your own individual beliefs, but the institution connected to them is evil!! And don't try to convince me with any sort of facts, all your facts boil down to a story book and people hallucinating (guys I'm seeing Patrick Star in my living room so he's real, no I'm not dreaming, he's real bcs I saw him and that's your proof). People just don't want to be different and think with their own heads because God forbid they use their own brains for more than two seconds (also, no, using a popular euphemism doesn't make me a believer, it's literally just a saying but people have also used THAT as 'proof' before). And they're afraid of the truth that nothing matters. Everyone is sheep, not Jesus' sheep, naive stupid sheep that are manipulated into being a part of the capitalistic machine because from the moment they are born they are taugh there are higher forces than them that they will never understand but should worship endlessly. Seriously, how do people not get the connection right in front of them?????????? This all seems very agressive but it is NOT against you OP, again I'm totally on your side. I'm against religion, theists need to open their fucking eyes.
For some reason I can't read it very clearly (probably because I'm on my phone) but reading the comments and replies I do feel the need to say something - and it's merely my personal opinion so please, don't take it as me trying to force anything on you!! Also sorry for any mistakes, english is not my first language so I just write however it makes sense to me in my head. First, I must say that most of the people you see and hear talking about God, preaching His word and etc... they do not have Him in their hearts. Period. The Church, in Christianity that is, refers to all those who walk by faith in Christ. Not everyone who claims to follow Him are in Him, does that make sense? Actually, to my personal point of view Christianity is the most spiritual "religion" there is to be but what's being preached over the years are rules and law - not the Word. Jesus himself reprimanded the religious leaders of the time for abusing their titles and weaponising God's law to burden His people with such heavy burdens and said they are responsible for scattering His children instead of bringing them together like God has always intended to, that all innocent blood is in their hands. That because it has been a recurring theme throughout history where men will use scriptures and the bible to assert themselves so they can bend the law to fit their own agenda and justify their actions as in some twisted divine authority that, by the way, go completely against God's will and His word. That was one of the reasons I left when I was eight - now mind you, I wasn't born in a christian household per say, my grandmother who raised me til that age was a woman of faith, my mother said to be but her actions and attitude were anything but of one so there's that. And my dad was never in the picture since he left when my mom found out she was pregnant so. But I did experience God when I was young, at 3 years old and it's one of the clearest memories I have of myself. There's pictures of me being a year old, less even, and kneeled by the couch with my face pressed against it praying, probably not even saying any coherent thought. I'm telling all this because, even with that, I still left and stopped going to church at 8 mostly because of my stepfather and then 1 just completely disconnected from it. That is to say, I didn't understand much back then as a child, yet I heard God simply because I was open to get to know Him despite not understanding Him one bit. Which is funny because 12 years later and I'm back, I understand Him much better now but the more I understand the more I realise I don't understand a thing in reality. It's confusing, right? I don't really know what I even intend with this comment, but the title of your post was something I used to think and say to others about religion as well so I guess it caught my memory. Writing this makes me reflect on how my views on God and the bible changed once I started looking for answers myself, just Him and I, instead of going with what others said or assumed of Him. The way I view it now it's like when you hear a friend talking about someone they're close with, then you hear someone else talking about that same person only they don't personally know them so they can only say what they think of them — not what they know through lived experiences, so it's always driven by the affinity they might or might not feel towards them. Then you get a chance to meet that person yourself and draw your own conclusion and you notice none of them were actually right about that person. The relationship you find is different because your own personal life experiences are different, so you can't be conditioned by someone else's experience that you, yourself, have not lived through. Same I found it to be with God, your relationship with Him will most likely be nothing like mine for example, because we most likely have lived very different lives and what is a wound to me won't be the case for you, what is a blessing for you might not be fit for me, so God will act differently in each of our lives but His intention is always the same. Freedom, grace, joy, love above all else.
I know I said somewhere before how christianity is the most spiritual centered "religion" there is, and I just remembered and wanted to clarify why: Jesus main purpose was to bring freedom. The jews, for example, didn't believe Him to be the Messiah because they did not "see" this freedom, they believed it meant freedom from Rome. Jesus says that our fight isn't against each other, isn't against humans, but against forces of evil that rule over this world. When John is to be killed and he sends men to go ask Jesus if He is the one they have been waiting for or if they should keep waiting and Jesus replies with something along the lines of "the blinds see, the deaf hear, the captives are being freed" He was doing miracles among the people - healing them. But when I was reading this verse a couple weeks ago for the first time after starting to seek more of God, I had this conviction that not only that, but "the blinds" also meant all the people who were being led astray from God by the weaponising of His word and that, through Christ, saw and found the truth of what it was actually meant to be, "the deaf" were those who had consequently hardened their hearts to God because of the mistreatment and abuse they’ve been suffering all those years by the very same reason but now, with Him walking on earth as one of them had their hearts softened through hearing the gospel from His own voice, and "the captives" here is in the sense of spiritual enslavement. All those who were oppressed by evil spirits, who had been misguided to give legality for anything that is not from God to act on their lives (most times misguided by the leaders of the time), everyone who was suffering any kind of spiritual oppression were also becoming clean by Christ when he'd cast out demons, for a rough example. It makes sense why God says "my people stumble and fail because they do not know the scriptures", it's easy to manipulate someone using something they don't know about so they can't defend themselves. In this world, everything is spiritual — the physical reflects and affects the spiritual and vice versa. The difference is God is respectful, He’ll maybe knock and you’ll maybe open the door for Him but He’ll only enter if you invite Him in. He won’t knock down the door and force something on you just because. That is just his character, He’s respectful, gentle, humble, human. He extends forgiveness to those who have faith in Him, even if they struggle to believe which is the most normal thing to happen, by faith in Christ you are justified of everything you’ve ever done. I've said all this but my point is please, from one person to another, don't let your beliefs be dictated by what you see others say, or think, or by their own beliefs. Draw your own. I mean this heart to heart, sincerely, in the most loving and genuine way possible, truly. The world is messed up, I've cried earlier in prayer because every time I step outside I'm filled with this dread that everything is falling apart and there's nothing we can do to fix it or help it even a little bit and that's even more messed up, money has become the idol of this world, everything is vanity right now, everything is superfluous and everyone's distracted with meaningless things while there's so many ongoing problems that no one seems to care about anymore. Again, everything has a spiritual side to it — and that doesn’t take away human accountability, but it does mean that where someone give legality in the spiritual, it will reflect on the physical and God won’t put His hand on something He hasn’t been called into not out of authority or power, out of respect and order. The spiritual world is much more organised than ours. And with everything I admit that faith is such a simple concept but it's so hard in practice because you don't see, sometimes you won't hear or feel either and it's practically incomprehensible for our minds to comprehend and understand something as true when we can't see it so our brain can grasp, I know and it's valid, it's logic, there's no fighting in that. Look for answers yourself, if you can. Try praying once, before going to sleep, even if you see no point and don't believe it at first, do it for the sake of getting an answer, do it for the sake of knowledge and understanding. Don't need to kneel, just lay in bed and talk in your mind. If you don't believe then say that, you know? Say "Jesus I don't believe in you, I can't understand you or your logic, I don't believe I need you, I don't see any point in seeking you, I don't agree with what I've heard/read about you but this crazy girl commented on one of my posts earlier asking me to do this and to prove her wrong I'll give it a try, she wrote this five page essay ranting about nothing that made much sense to be honest". I say this because I was led to believe that I had to be perfect to be a christian - not as in religion but as in having faith in Christ and believing in God. I used to think that meant I was expected to never do anything wrong ever again and that's just unrealistic for any human being because we have a tendency to want things that most of the time we don't need, and we tend to give in to those wants because it satisfies us momentarily but never wholly, so we keep going after and giving in because we don't know anything else that can fill that void permanently. So I thought it was impossible for me to follow all that but the whole point is that since the beginning, God gave us free will so we wouldn't be slaves not even to Him but come to Him out of our own will — to seek answers, to get to know Him, to seek help. He expects us to exert our free will to choose Him. But He also already knew that by giving us a choice we'd choose the harmful option (spiritually harmful), since the beginning He had given us a choice and a solution to the consequences of what He knew we'd choose and that solution was Christ. Because of Him it doesn't mean I have to be perfect, God knows we can't do it on our own and He doesn't expect us to, I've recently read in the bible that it is not by good works that we get to heaven because someone can do good things publicly and still be a horrible person inside, but by faith in Jesus we give Him legality to act on our lives through his Holy Spirit, so His spirit testifies with our human spirit that we are daughters/sons of God and He is the one who starts changing our convictions, hearts, minds, lives, environments and so on - knowing we won't be perfect all the time, knowing we will make mistakes, and want to give up because it's a hard path at times and yet He says that if you do, but instead of hiding away or ignoring it you turn to Him and just talk to him about it, you are forgiven. The more I read the bible, pray (which I consider myself bad at honestly), and just overall try to seek Him throughout the days despite everything that could lead me to simply settle for whatever the majority say about "who God is" and "what God wants" and "why God doesn't do this" or "why God does that", the more I myself put in the effort to search and find the more I find and what I've been finding lately is that all God wants is trust and honesty from us, not perfection, never perfection. We'll only be made perfect when in heaven but until then He expects us to fall, He knows we do, He just asks us to go to him and let him be the one who takes cares of our needs because He knows what we need beyond what we want or crave, He knows what our spirits need in order for us to BE fulfilled, not only feel, and have a meaning, a purpose in life that brings us a peace that it's hard to explain. Why would He create such intricate creatures and give them a home with land that grows everything they need without having a meaning for each and every single one of these creatures? I'll shut up now and I do apologise for how long this probably is, it's been a lonely road and it's past 4am I can't find rest so it gets me thinking about everything in general so, sorry for the rant. I do hope you take my message lightly and with an open heart tho, how you have to experience someone to be able to tell if they're good or bad instead of "judging a book by its cover" I've found to be the same with God. Everyone will tell you something and you will only find the truth in what they say or don't or find the answer to your own questions if you live it yourself. I hope you may find some comfort in praying - it sounds like such a serious word but honestly most of my prayers is me either crying about something or walking around the house doing chores and talking out loud about what's been on my mind. Sometimes I'll just talk inside my head too, it really is that simple. Give it a try, not just once or twice, but also don't force yourself to. Feel crazy if you must, some paths are unusual. If you are into philosophy then you must know, sometimes the way to logic is irrational — oftentimes irrationally opens the door for the nonsensical to make sense. Treat it like creating a bond with someone you never met, you have to nourish it right? Show interest, be reciprocal, but above everything be honest because there's no trust without truth. I pray these messy arrangement of words of mine can shine some light somehow, I'm really sorry again for how long this became. May God meet you where you are, bless your beautiful soul!
For some reason I can't read it very clearly (probably because I'm on my phone) but reading the comments and replies I do feel the need to say something - and it's merely my personal opinion so please, don't take it as me trying to force anything on you!! Also sorry for any mistakes, english is not my first language so I just write however it makes sense to me in my head. First, I must say that most of the people you see and hear talking about God, preaching His word and etc... they do not have Him in their hearts. Period. The Church, in Christianity that is, refers to all those who walk by faith in Christ. Not everyone who claims to follow Him are in Him, does that make sense? Actually, to my personal point of view Christianity is the most spiritual "religion" there is to be but what's being preached over the years are rules and law - not the Word. Jesus himself reprimanded the religious leaders of the time for abusing their titles and weaponising God's law to burden His people with such heavy burdens and said they are responsible for scattering His children instead of bringing them together like God has always intended to, that all innocent blood is in their hands. That because it has been a recurring theme throughout history where men will use scriptures and the bible to assert themselves so they can bend the law to fit their own agenda and justify their actions as in some twisted divine authority that, by the way, go completely against God's will and His word. That was one of the reasons I left when I was eight - now mind you, I wasn't born in a christian household per say, my grandmother who raised me til that age was a woman of faith, my mother said to be but her actions and attitude were anything but of one so there's that. And my dad was never in the picture since he left when my mom found out she was pregnant so. But I did experience God when I was young, at 3 years old and it's one of the clearest memories I have of myself. There's pictures of me being a year old, less even, and kneeled by the couch with my face pressed against it praying, probably not even saying any coherent thought. I'm telling all this because, even with that, I still left and stopped going to church at 8 mostly because of my stepfather and then 1 just completely disconnected from it. That is to say, I didn't understand much back then as a child, yet I heard God simply because I was open to get to know Him despite not understanding Him one bit. Which is funny because 12 years later and I'm back, I understand Him much better now but the more I understand the more I realise I don't understand a thing in reality. It's confusing, right? I don't really know what I even intend with this comment, but the title of your post was something I used to think and say to others about religion as well so I guess it caught my memory. Writing this makes me reflect on how my views on God and the bible changed once I started looking for answers myself, just Him and I, instead of going with what others said or assumed of Him. The way I view it now it's like when you hear a friend talking about someone they're close with, then you hear someone else talking about that same person only they don't personally know them so they can only say what they think of them — not what they know through lived experiences, so it's always driven by the affinity they might or might not feel towards them. Then you get a chance to meet that person yourself and draw your own conclusion and you notice none of them were actually right about that person. The relationship you find is different because your own personal life experiences are different, so you can't be conditioned by someone else's experience that you, yourself, have not lived through. Same I found it to be with God, your relationship with Him will most likely be nothing like mine for example, because we most likely have lived very different lives and what is a wound to me won't be the case for you, what is a blessing for you might not be fit for me, so God will act differently in each of our lives but His intention is always the same. Freedom, grace, joy, love above all else.
I know I said somewhere before how christianity is the most spiritual centered "religion" there is, and I just remembered and wanted to clarify why: Jesus main purpose was to bring freedom. The jews, for example, didn't believe Him to be the Messiah because they did not "see" this freedom, they believed it meant freedom from Rome. Jesus says that our fight isn't against each other, isn't against humans, but against forces of evil that rule over this world. When John is to be killed and he sends men to go ask Jesus if He is the one they have been waiting for or if they should keep waiting and Jesus replies with something along the lines of "the blinds see, the deaf hear, the captives are being freed" He was doing miracles among the people - healing them. But when I was reading this verse a couple weeks ago for the first time after starting to seek more of God, I had this conviction that not only that, but "the blinds" also meant all the people who were being led astray from God by the weaponising of His word and that, through Christ, saw and found the truth of what it was actually meant to be, "the deaf" were those who had consequently hardened their hearts to God because of the mistreatment and abuse they’ve been suffering all those years by the very same reason but now, with Him walking on earth as one of them had their hearts softened through hearing the gospel from His own voice, and "the captives" here is in the sense of spiritual enslavement. All those who were oppressed by evil spirits, who had been misguided to give legality for anything that is not from God to act on their lives (most times misguided by the leaders of the time), everyone who was suffering any kind of spiritual oppression were also becoming clean by Christ when he'd cast out demons, for a rough example. It makes sense why God says "my people stumble and fail because they do not know the scriptures", it's easy to manipulate someone using something they don't know about so they can't defend themselves. In this world, everything is spiritual — the physical reflects and affects the spiritual and vice versa. The difference is God is respectful, He’ll maybe knock and you’ll maybe open the door for Him but He’ll only enter if you invite Him in. He won’t knock down the door and force something on you just because. That is just his character, He’s respectful, gentle, humble, human. He extends forgiveness to those who have faith in Him, even if they struggle to believe which is the most normal thing to happen, by faith in Christ you are justified of everything you’ve ever done. I've said all this but my point is please, from one person to another, don't let your beliefs be dictated by what you see others say, or think, or by their own beliefs. Draw your own. I mean this heart to heart, sincerely, in the most loving and genuine way possible, truly. The world is messed up, I've cried earlier in prayer because every time I step outside I'm filled with this dread that everything is falling apart and there's nothing we can do to fix it or help it even a little bit and that's even more messed up, money has become the idol of this world, everything is vanity right now, everything is superfluous and everyone's distracted with meaningless things while there's so many ongoing problems that no one seems to care about anymore. Again, everything has a spiritual side to it — and that doesn’t take away human accountability, but it does mean that where someone give legality in the spiritual, it will reflect on the physical and God won’t put His hand on something He hasn’t been called into not out of authority or power, out of respect and order. The spiritual world is much more organised than ours. And with everything I admit that faith is such a simple concept but it's so hard in practice because you don't see, sometimes you won't hear or feel either and it's practically incomprehensible for our minds to comprehend and understand something as true when we can't see it so our brain can grasp, I know and it's valid, it's logic, there's no fighting in that. Look for answers yourself, if you can. Try praying once, before going to sleep, even if you see no point and don't believe it at first, do it for the sake of getting an answer, do it for the sake of knowledge and understanding. Don't need to kneel, just lay in bed and talk in your mind. If you don't believe then say that, you know? Say "Jesus I don't believe in you, I can't understand you or your logic, I don't believe I need you, I don't see any point in seeking you, I don't agree with what I've heard/read about you but this crazy girl commented on one of my posts earlier asking me to do this and to prove her wrong I'll give it a try, she wrote this five page essay ranting about nothing that made much sense to be honest". I say this because I was led to believe that I had to be perfect to be a christian - not as in religion but as in having faith in Christ and believing in God. I used to think that meant I was expected to never do anything wrong ever again and that's just unrealistic for any human being because we have a tendency to want things that most of the time we don't need, and we tend to give in to those wants because it satisfies us momentarily but never wholly, so we keep going after and giving in because we don't know anything else that can fill that void permanently. So I thought it was impossible for me to follow all that but the whole point is that since the beginning, God gave us free will so we wouldn't be slaves not even to Him but come to Him out of our own will — to seek answers, to get to know Him, to seek help. He expects us to exert our free will to choose Him. But He also already knew that by giving us a choice we'd choose the harmful option (spiritually harmful), since the beginning He had given us a choice and a solution to the consequences of what He knew we'd choose and that solution was Christ. Because of Him it doesn't mean I have to be perfect, God knows we can't do it on our own and He doesn't expect us to, I've recently read in the bible that it is not by good works that we get to heaven because someone can do good things publicly and still be a horrible person inside, but by faith in Jesus we give Him legality to act on our lives through his Holy Spirit, so His spirit testifies with our human spirit that we are daughters/sons of God and He is the one who starts changing our convictions, hearts, minds, lives, environments and so on - knowing we won't be perfect all the time, knowing we will make mistakes, and want to give up because it's a hard path at times and yet He says that if you do, but instead of hiding away or ignoring it you turn to Him and just talk to him about it, you are forgiven. The more I read the bible, pray (which I consider myself bad at honestly), and just overall try to seek Him throughout the days despite everything that could lead me to simply settle for whatever the majority say about "who God is" and "what God wants" and "why God doesn't do this" or "why God does that", the more I myself put in the effort to search and find the more I find and what I've been finding lately is that all God wants is trust and honesty from us, not perfection, never perfection. We'll only be made perfect when in heaven but until then He expects us to fall, He knows we do, He just asks us to go to him and let him be the one who takes cares of our needs because He knows what we need beyond what we want or crave, He knows what our spirits need in order for us to BE fulfilled, not only feel, and have a meaning, a purpose in life that brings us a peace that it's hard to explain. Why would He create such intricate creatures and give them a home with land that grows everything they need without having a meaning for each and every single one of these creatures? I'll shut up now and I do apologise for how long this probably is, it's been a lonely road and it's past 4am I can't find rest so it gets me thinking about everything in general so, sorry for the rant. I do hope you take my message lightly and with an open heart tho, how you have to experience someone to be able to tell if they're good or bad instead of "judging a book by its cover" I've found to be the same with God. Everyone will tell you something and you will only find the truth in what they say or don't or find the answer to your own questions if you live it yourself. I hope you may find some comfort in praying - it sounds like such a serious word but honestly most of my prayers is me either crying about something or walking around the house doing chores and talking out loud about what's been on my mind. Sometimes I'll just talk inside my head too, it really is that simple. Give it a try, not just once or twice, but also don't force yourself to. Feel crazy if you must, some paths are unusual. If you are into philosophy then you must know, sometimes the way to logic is irrational — oftentimes irrationally opens the door for the nonsensical to make sense. Treat it like creating a bond with someone you never met, you have to nourish it right? Show interest, be reciprocal, but above everything be honest because there's no trust without truth. I pray these messy arrangement of words of mine can shine some light somehow, I'm really sorry again for how long this became. May God meet you where you are, bless your beautiful soul!
(this comment section makes me feel simple minded but ima try LOL)
okay, im an undercover ex muslim girl (turned agnostic) whom still lives in a muslim household. i agree with the fact that Islam HAS been warped into something not only horrific, but enforced to ppl in Afghanistan, especially women. Its been used not only by muslims for muslim control, but also been warped by western media, especially after 9/11. Although it isnt AS demonized now as compared to back in the 2000s, its still being warped.
Although me being muslim didnt entail my happiness, it can still bring joy to others, and peace of mind, especially. but, its kinda a double edged sword imo. within my family specifically, its used mostly for control purposes, mainly regarding women. but, thats also a single family out of what.. almost a billion muslims?? (too lazy to google lolz). It does bring peace of mind to some, destruction and harm to others.
Its not truly as simple as religion = bad horrific things, but it sometimes does. but thats, to be honest, humans as a whole. they choose both what to believe in, and what to do with it. it may not be good, but its the (partially) the disgusting society we live in.
anyways im out. im getting hand cramps, but this could imo, be a whole ass deep dive, which I highly rec looking into!!!
I honestly don’t understand the concept of a religion where you need to please some kind of god, I feel like it’s better to just be grateful for what the earth and everything has given you than to beg to a most likely non-existent god who wants you to do everything they say or you’ll be punished. As someone who follows Shintoism I just don’t get that. Why can’t people just be grateful for the things that the world has created, why does the world need to have a meaning? Why can’t people just enjoy life for life and not because of fear. Maybe that’s just me though. I really don’t understand the mindset of “I need to follow what this god says or else I’ll be punished and I need to not be happy in order to find happiness” it just doesn’t make sense. People should find happiness in their everyday lives from the air that they breathe and the food that they eat to great events that happen in their lives. I just think humans can live happier lives when they surround themselves with good and happy things and thoughts rather than fear. Why can’t we just thank the earth and the energy it gives humans and everything else in between?
Again that might just be me. Fear seems to be the most popular tactic for religion though so I don’t know(at least that’s what I’ve seen).. I don’t think humans need to go through pain in order to be happy in the end to find purpose. Because we have no purpose so might as well find the happiness and be thankful for it.
I am frankly getting really sick of random people thinking they've discovered the real nature of religion, even whenever they often haven't interacted deeply with anything that they're criticizing, nor with the deeper nature *of their own criticisms*. No investment into theology, religious studies, history of religion, etc etc etc.
The real problem with this sorts of grand statements, the kind that little to no academic would make about these subjects, is just simply that they're without nuance, and fail to account for cases to contrary. For instance, you say "religion", but only here speak of Islam and Christianity... what of other religions? Ones that are less interested in the religious objects that those two are. Many religions aren't interested in the question of sin, or the question of eschatology, or even of belief more generally. In some cases, take Daoism, little to nothing you said applies.
But then furthermore, even amongst Muslims and Christians it is kind of hard to make a blanket statement such as you have, not the least of which is because of the *internal diversity* that these religions have, as with all religions. What of Sufis, what of Quakers? They are interesting groups that behave quite a bit differently on average than other folk Christians and Muslims. It feels like there are so often these, usually white, peoples who think that their familiar with folk Christianity and perhaps some Islamophobia that they've been given by American anti-Middle Eastern propaganda makes them some kind of expert on religion.
And "folk" Christians and Muslims is an important distinction to me, since despite criticizing *an institution*, it feels like you have little to no institutional criticism. What do you make of the way this institution interacts, both currently and historically, with other institutions such as Patriarchy, or Capitalism, or Imperialism? Perhaps, as I would argue, a lot of the evil within religion is contingent on the ways in which its been modified and adapted by other institutions. Little to no wars have ever been truly "Religious Wars', religion was only the casus belli, most wars are ultimately material, related to land acquisition or the acquisition of resources and commodities.
If you want to criticize the stupidity of a lot of everyday Christians and Muslims, go right ahead, many of them frankly deserve it. However, if you're *just criticizing those groups, with no sentiment thats actually generally and universally applicable to all religion, then perhaps narrow it down*.
As a couple closing notes: "Believing in god implies the existence of a being who will judge you after death, checking whether you were good enough and whether you accepted his commandments." How does this necessarily imply this? Plenty of religions and religious peoples don't believe in this, and I find it easy to imagine an ontology wherein God exists but does not judge people morally at all, let alone after death.
"Personally, i find the belief in something that we cannot see, feel, hear, or touch to be irrational." I find this pretty unlikely because we as people are constantly believing in the intuitive postulations needed to make decisions, but even so, take Science. Science *works* with data that is perceivable to the senses, or some kind of sensory tool anyways, but it the methodology itself is not sensory... nowhere in the physical description of the universe do we find Science, it is instead the opposite formula, that we often find a physical description of the universe inside of Science as a method. That being said, even then, for some people thats falling apart with some interpretations of Quantum Physics and its various phenomenon... which are actually another case of things you can't "see, feel, hear, or touch".
Youre writing a whole essay about the complexity of religion, but none of it actually hits the point im making. youre acting like mentioning a bunch of different religions somehow changes the fact that there is still zero real evidence for any god at all. bringing up daoism or sufis or quakers doesnt magically create proof where there isnt any. Science isnt the same thing as belief. i can look at physics, experiments, data, actual results. science gives us things that work, things we can see and test. religion gives stories and claims that cant be proven in any way. trying to compare those two just doesnt make sense at all lol and talking about small or obscure religions doesnt help your argument either. just because something is less focused on sin or has a different structure doesnt suddenly make it logical or real. if anything, smaller religions have even less to back them up. it doesnt matter how rare or poetic or philosophical they are. none of them provide actual evidence youree also focusing on how diverse religions are like that somehow makes them above criticism. it doesnt. you can split a belief system into a thousand pieces and it still doesnt make the supernatural parts true. complexity doesnt equal truth. tradition doesnt equal truth. popularity doesnt equal truth. nothing in religion can be tested or verified im talking about the fact that so many major religions use fear as a foundation. fear of sin, fear of punishment, fear of judgment. thats not me misunderstanding anything, it’s literally written into the teachings of those religions. pretending this is all just a misunderstanding of "folk religion” is honestly just dodging the obvious. (also religions not having those things still doesnt make it okay lol) so yeah, i get that you want everything to be nuanced and academic, but none of that changes the main point. if a belief system makes huge claims about the universe and cant back up any of it with actual proof, then its completely reasonable to question it. no amount of side arguments or exceptions changes that basic reality.
It actually does whenever you're making broad statements about religions and what they believe in, and many of those religions do not believe in God, or even Gods at all. And trying to frame religions that don't personally fit into your narrative as merely "small or obscure" doesn't matter whenever you're making a universalizing statement... if there is an exception to a rule, it is not a rule. Not the least of which is given to the fact that those religions aren't "small and obscure" when taken together as whole, though may be when taken in each individual case (depends on exactly when a religion starts being small and obscure). Nor, regardless of their size and obscurity, are they above criticism. The reason I was "acting" that way, is because you were making generalizing statements and arguments about *religion* that were in many instances not actually applicable to all religion. As I said before, if they are an exception, it is not a rule.
Now, getting into the Science you apparently must care so deeply about... you seem to entirely misunderstand its Epistemology. Which, to be clear, is what Science is grounded in... there is no science without an Epistemology that it follows from. And Epistemology, if you are unaware, is a philosophical school of inquiry. That is to say that it is not itself a physically observable and verifiable object. Now, if one agrees with the epistemology, then Science provides an methodology for acquiring data. What Science does not do is interpret that data... we can attempt to interpret it logically, or by some other framework, but Science does not interpret that data in of itself. All of this is to say, Science does not prove Science, since as I said in the previous message, "nowhere in the physical description of the universe do we find Science". And no, Science having clear utilitarian benefits doesn't make it true, not in the sense of Absolute Truth, anyways. This is proven by—say—philosophical pragmaticism, which is definitionally not about whats true but is about whats useful.
Now, I was thinking of copying and pasting this entire section from Routledge's Contemporary Introductions To Philosophy "Philosophy of Religion: A Contemporary Introduction by Professor Kieth E Yandell" that proves, in outlined and clear axiomatic logic, the way in which what I said in the paragraph above is logically consistent and follows.... However, I kinda figure I can point you to where you can read it yourself if you're genuinely curious, since Anna's Archive or Library Genesis always have it online. It is on pages 344-346 of both the original 1999 printing and the 2002 reprinting....
All of the above is, to be clear, why I care so much about things being oh so academic and nuanced... because *that* is what is *rigorous*. Of course, you seem to position yourself as someone who cares about rigor, but in reality, your argument is not as authentically grounded in rigor as you may believe it to be. And, frankly, if you end up reading that excerpt from the book above, I recommend reading other parts of it too, perhaps the whole book... it would actually teach you a lot about the thing you're criticizing. Even if you remain critical of it, you would have the tools and foreknowledge to be able to criticize it in a better manner.
youre throwing a lot of philosophy terms around but none of it actually changes the basic reality that im even talking about. religions make claims about reality that they CANT prove. thats it.. and saying some religions dont have "gods” doesnt help, because they still make claims about spirits, forces, karma, souls, reincarnation, or other supernatural stuff that has zero evidence behind it. you can call that an "exception” if you want,, but an exception with no proof is still an unproven claim whenever i talk about science, im not talking about feelings or opinions. im talking about testability and falsifiability. science works because it follows rules that have to be met before something is accepted. if a claim cant be tested, repeated, or falsified, it doesnt count as knowledge. this isnt MY personal idea,, this is literally the foundation of scientific method
karl popper, the philosopher whose work basically shaped modern science, stated that if something isnt falsifiable, it isnt scientific. you can read that in the logic of scientific discovery from 1934. religion, by definition, fails falsifiability, because no supernatural claim can be tested or proven wrong under controlled conditions.
another example, carl sagan said extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence. his book the demon haunted world explains exactly why supernatural claims dont hold up. every religion makes extraordinary claims, and none of them provide extraordinary evidence. or any evidence at all lmao
if you want more, the stanford encyclopedia of philosophy has an entire section on the problem of evil and how the existence of suffering contradicts the idea of an all powerful, all good god. philosophers like mackie and rowe have written on this. nothing in religion has solved it. so again, no evidence that holds up.
youre also saying science doesn’t "interpret” its own data. yeah, no kidding. interpretation isnt the same thing as making up supernatural explanations. interpretation still has to be backed up by data, experiments, models, predictions, and review. science produces technology and accurate predictions. religion doesnt. you can talk about epistemology all day but it doesnt change observable reality.
you keep telling me to read books on philosophy of religion, but yet still none of those books actually provide evidence for religious claims. theyre arguments defending positions that still have no proof. adding more layers of theory doesnt actually produce evidence out of thin air. thats why simplicity matters. if a belief system makes a claim about how the universe works, it needs verifiable evidence. religion has none. science does.
so no thanks , i dont need to read 300 pages of philosophy to see the obvious. a claim with no evidence stays a claim with no evidence, no matter how academic you try to make it sound.
You're really quite obstinate about all this that, in all of my "throwing around philosophy", the point I'm making in response to your original point goes over your head so completely. You made some argument about religious belief being irrational or untrustworthy or otherwise not valuable because of its inability to be founded in Science, and I pointed out how Science itself can't even be found in Science, even though I think both of us would agree that Science is useful, good, valuable, etc etc. The point, basically, is to suggest "If you think Science is good despite not being founded in something that is itself scientific, then you must be open to the possibility that other forms of coming to truth exist beyond science alone." The first part of this statement being proven through rigorous axiomatic logic, as I sourced previously.
Also, Karl Popper was quite agnostic, though there is that famous quote of his where he says: "I don't know whether God exists or not (...) Some forms of atheism are arrogant and ignorant and should be rejected, but agnosticism—to admit that we don't know and to search—is all right. (...) When I look at what I call the gift of life, I feel a gratitude which is in tune with some religious ideas of God. However, the moment I even speak of it, I am embarrassed that I may do something wrong to God in talking about God." He also said: "Although I am not for religion, I do think that we should show respect for anybody who believes honestly." We are, of course, talking about *the Karl Popper* who was a famous theorizer on the *Open Society*, which necessarily includes religious plurality. And when he speaks of arrogant and ignorant forms of atheism, I frankly think he is talking about yours. I could also go on about how there are actually some nicher aspects of things you've said that suggest you also don't really understand his idea of falsification or other aspects of his philosophy, but I frankly think it would be a waste of my time, plus you seem to not care for me "throwing around philosophy" anyways. The irony being, of course, that this is an innately philosophical discussion. You've walked into a gun fight with a knife.
I'm less overtly familiar with Carl Sagan so I have nothing to add there, although I like how that literal elementary quote of his is your most prevalent point there. Either way, I figure there is no point beating a dead horse, because I suspect you're going to keep focusing on the "lack of scientific evidence" thing, even though I've already responded in kind to that.
decentralize "god" as not a being, but a synonym to entropy. that the Abrahamic "God" and the "god" that we assign ourselves are not one in the same. what is your "god"? what do you assign it to be? if you chose to give power to the "God" that exists through the meaning of the masses, then you would also be the slave.
i believe that counter-culture doesn't really exist. if you adhere to the structure that is pre-existing, then you are just as much consumed as the others you rebel against.
so, what is the answer?
expose yourself to other cultures, other walks of life--reveal and consume as many experiences possible and force yourself to come to your own conclusion--and worship your own mythos, your own religion.
You get it! If someone's only criticism of "religion" as a whole is just the version thats immediately apparent to them, then they make the same universalizing and generalizing mistake that these *very same people* will criticize *all religious people* for. All of it without looking towards what religion *could* or *can* be.
(I am not religious myself, but I am studying it.) On the other hand, religion gives comfort to these people. "What should I do in this situation?" - they read it in their book or ask their priest who gives them answer. When they feel bad, they go to the priest and tell them their worries, or they pray and tell their worries to their god. And a part of them are comforted by the idea that there is something after death, that they will see their loved ones once again.
Now wait until something doesnt go their way. They will feel depressed and ruined and will feel like god doesnt love them, and i know it on my example and many of other humans that i know that have felt the same way
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Alexander
I agree, 100%!! It's simply so silly to believe in something so OBVIOUSLY made up. Take a look at how any religion was started and it's very clear they were made up, either to usurp power (usually to usurp power) or because people didn't have better explanations for things like natural phenomenas or, as you've stated, wanting there to be a purpose. Religious folk ALWAYS wakt you to look at their side, to read their religious texts, to engage in a million and two debates and always consider everything they say but it's just so stupid?? Like, all power to you I guess but surely you have to understand how false all that sounds. I was raised Christian so I can make the comnection there. How was it started? Some guy claimed to be the son of God and performed miracles, in the end he was brought back from the dead. Cool! Source??? The source is one book. One book that claims pretty extreme, magical things. No other, unbiased outside sources mention anything about Jesus' miracles or resurrection. Oh but other sources do mention people like Jesus! Okay, so possible he or many people like him existed. That is people that preached to be the son of God or claimed to do miracles. There's no other sources for those deeds. Not to mention how the Bible wasn't written WHEN all that was happening but decades later when the so-called son of God was dead already. Any other sources??? Well everyone says it's true. Okay, any other sources??????? Well Jesus will come back. Source? No, nothing??? Well I will certainly burn in Hell for my sins. The source is that people say so. Oh purgatory is a thing, right? Source is a literal made up story by this funny guy called Dante. Right, many many things believed today and preached as truth have been written as basically Bible fanfics. Suddenly they're true becuase???????? Oh and Jesus only came down to Earth now, 2000 years ago, despite the tens of thousands of years humans have existed before. Why didn't he come before? Oh because they hadn't made him up yet. Like, you can have your own individual beliefs, but the institution connected to them is evil!! And don't try to convince me with any sort of facts, all your facts boil down to a story book and people hallucinating (guys I'm seeing Patrick Star in my living room so he's real, no I'm not dreaming, he's real bcs I saw him and that's your proof). People just don't want to be different and think with their own heads because God forbid they use their own brains for more than two seconds (also, no, using a popular euphemism doesn't make me a believer, it's literally just a saying but people have also used THAT as 'proof' before). And they're afraid of the truth that nothing matters. Everyone is sheep, not Jesus' sheep, naive stupid sheep that are manipulated into being a part of the capitalistic machine because from the moment they are born they are taugh there are higher forces than them that they will never understand but should worship endlessly. Seriously, how do people not get the connection right in front of them?????????? This all seems very agressive but it is NOT against you OP, again I'm totally on your side. I'm against religion, theists need to open their fucking eyes.
୭ Kafka Von Goethe ཐི♡ཋྀ
For some reason I can't read it very clearly (probably because I'm on my phone) but reading the comments and replies I do feel the need to say something - and it's merely my personal opinion so please, don't take it as me trying to force anything on you!!
Also sorry for any mistakes, english is not my first language so I just write however it makes sense to me in my head.
First, I must say that most of the people you see and hear talking about God, preaching His word and etc... they do not have Him in their hearts. Period. The Church, in Christianity that is, refers to all those who walk by faith in Christ. Not everyone who claims to follow Him are in Him, does that make sense? Actually, to my personal point of view Christianity is the most spiritual "religion" there is to be but what's being preached over the years are rules and law
- not the Word. Jesus himself reprimanded the religious leaders of the time for abusing their titles and weaponising God's law to burden His people with such heavy burdens and said they are responsible for scattering His children instead of bringing them together like God has always intended to, that all innocent blood is in their hands. That because it has been a recurring theme throughout history where men will use scriptures and the bible to assert themselves so they can bend the law to fit their own agenda and justify their actions as in some twisted divine authority that, by the way, go completely against God's will and His word.
That was one of the reasons I left when I was eight - now mind you, I wasn't born in a christian household per say, my grandmother who raised me til that age was a woman of faith, my mother said to be but her actions and attitude were anything but of one so there's that. And my dad was never in the picture since he left when my mom found out she was pregnant so. But I did experience God when I was young, at 3 years old and it's one of the clearest memories I have of myself. There's pictures of me being a year old, less even, and kneeled by the couch with my face pressed against it praying, probably not even saying any coherent thought. I'm telling all this because, even with that, I still left and stopped going to church at 8 mostly because of my stepfather and then 1 just completely disconnected from it.
That is to say, I didn't understand much back then as a child, yet I heard God simply because I was open to get to know Him despite not understanding Him one bit. Which is funny because 12 years later and I'm back, I understand Him much better now but the more I understand the more I realise I don't understand a thing in reality. It's confusing, right?
I don't really know what I even intend with this comment, but the title of your post was something I used to think and say to others about religion as well so I guess it caught my memory. Writing this makes me reflect on how my views on God and the bible changed once I started looking for answers myself, just Him and I, instead of going with what others said or assumed of Him. The way I view it now it's like when you hear a friend talking about someone they're close with, then you hear someone else talking about that same person only they don't personally know them so they can only say what they think of them — not what they know through lived experiences, so it's always driven by the affinity they might or might not feel towards them. Then you get a chance to meet that person yourself and draw your own conclusion and you notice none of them were actually right about that person. The relationship you find is different because your own personal life experiences are different, so you can't be conditioned by someone else's experience that you, yourself, have not lived through. Same I found it to be with God, your relationship with Him will most likely be nothing like mine for example, because we most likely have lived very different lives and what is a wound to me won't be the case for you, what is a blessing for you might not be fit for me, so God will act differently in each of our lives but His intention is always the same. Freedom, grace, joy, love above all else.
I know I said somewhere before how christianity is the most spiritual centered "religion" there is, and I just remembered and wanted to clarify why: Jesus main purpose was to bring freedom. The jews, for example, didn't believe Him to be the Messiah because they did not "see" this freedom, they believed it meant freedom from Rome. Jesus says that our fight isn't against each other, isn't against humans, but against forces of evil that rule over this world. When John is to be killed and he sends men to go ask Jesus if He is the one they have been waiting for or if they should keep waiting and Jesus replies with something along the lines of "the blinds see, the deaf hear, the captives are being freed" He was doing miracles among the people - healing them. But when I was reading this verse a couple weeks ago for the first time after starting to seek more of God, I had this conviction that not only that, but "the blinds" also meant all the people who were being led astray from God by the weaponising of His word and that, through Christ, saw and found the truth of what it was actually meant to be, "the deaf" were those who had consequently hardened their hearts to God because of the mistreatment and abuse they’ve been suffering all those years by the very same reason but now, with Him walking on earth as one of them had their hearts softened through hearing the gospel from His own voice, and "the captives" here is in the sense of spiritual enslavement. All those who were oppressed by evil spirits, who had been misguided to give legality for anything that is not from God to act on their lives (most times misguided by the leaders of the time), everyone who was suffering any kind of spiritual oppression were also becoming clean by Christ when he'd cast out demons, for a rough example. It makes sense why God says "my people stumble and fail because they do not know the scriptures", it's easy to manipulate someone using something they don't know about so they can't defend themselves.
In this world, everything is spiritual — the physical reflects and affects the spiritual and vice versa. The difference is God is respectful, He’ll maybe knock and you’ll maybe open the door for Him but He’ll only enter if you invite Him in. He won’t knock down the door and force something on you just because. That is just his character, He’s respectful, gentle, humble, human. He extends forgiveness to those who have faith in Him, even if they struggle to believe which is the most normal thing to happen, by faith in Christ you are justified of everything you’ve ever done.
I've said all this but my point is please, from one person to another, don't let your beliefs be dictated by what you see others say, or think, or by their own beliefs. Draw your own.
I mean this heart to heart, sincerely, in the most loving and genuine way possible, truly. The world is messed up, I've cried earlier in prayer because every time I step outside I'm filled with this dread that everything is falling apart and there's nothing we can do to fix it or help it even a little bit and that's even more messed up, money has become the idol of this world, everything is vanity right now, everything is superfluous and everyone's distracted with meaningless things while there's so many ongoing problems that no one seems to care about anymore. Again, everything has a spiritual side to it — and that doesn’t take away human accountability, but it does mean that where someone give legality in the spiritual, it will reflect on the physical and God won’t put His hand on something He hasn’t been called into not out of authority or power, out of respect and order. The spiritual world is much more organised than ours. And with everything I admit that faith is such a simple concept but it's so hard in practice because you don't see, sometimes you won't hear or feel either and it's practically incomprehensible for our minds to comprehend and understand something as true when we can't see it so our brain can grasp, I know and it's valid, it's logic, there's no fighting in that. Look for answers yourself, if you can. Try praying once, before going to sleep, even if you see no point and don't believe it at first, do it for the sake of getting an answer, do it for the sake of knowledge and understanding. Don't need to kneel, just lay in bed and talk in your mind. If you don't believe then say that, you know?
Say "Jesus I don't believe in you, I can't understand you or your logic, I don't believe I need you, I don't see any point in seeking you, I don't agree with what I've heard/read about you but this crazy girl commented on one of my posts earlier asking me to do this and to prove her wrong I'll give it a try, she wrote this five page essay ranting about nothing that made much sense to be honest". I say this because I was led to believe that I had to be perfect to be a christian - not as in religion but as in having faith in Christ and believing in God. I used to think that meant I was expected to never do anything wrong ever again and that's just unrealistic for any human being because we have a tendency to want things that most of the time we don't need, and we tend to give in to those wants because it satisfies us momentarily but never wholly, so we keep going after and giving in because we don't know anything else that can fill that void permanently.
So I thought it was impossible for me to follow all that but the whole point is that since the beginning, God gave us free will so we wouldn't be slaves not even to Him but come to Him out of our own will — to seek answers, to get to know Him, to seek help. He expects us to exert our free will to choose Him. But He also already knew that by giving us a choice we'd choose the harmful option (spiritually harmful), since the beginning He had given us a choice and a solution to the consequences of what He knew we'd choose and that solution was Christ. Because of Him it doesn't mean I have to be perfect, God knows we can't do it on our own and He doesn't expect us to, I've recently read in the bible that it is not by good works that we get to heaven because someone can do good things publicly and still be a horrible person inside, but by faith in Jesus we give Him legality to act on our lives through his Holy Spirit, so His spirit testifies with our human spirit that we are daughters/sons of God and He is the one who starts changing our convictions, hearts, minds, lives, environments and so on - knowing we won't be perfect all the time, knowing we will make mistakes, and want to give up because it's a hard path at times and yet He says that if you do, but instead of hiding away or ignoring it you turn to Him and just talk to him about it, you are forgiven. The more I read the bible, pray (which I consider myself bad at honestly), and just overall try to seek Him throughout the days despite everything that could lead me to simply settle for whatever the majority say about "who God is" and "what God wants" and "why God doesn't do this" or
"why God does that", the more I myself put in the effort to search and find the more I find and what I've been finding lately is that all God wants is trust and honesty from us, not perfection, never perfection. We'll only be made perfect when in heaven but until then He expects us to fall, He knows we do, He just asks us to go to him and let him be the one who takes cares of our needs because He knows what we need beyond what we want or crave, He knows what our spirits need in order for us to BE fulfilled, not only feel, and have a meaning, a purpose in life that brings us a peace that it's hard to explain. Why would He create such intricate creatures and give them a home with land that grows everything they need without having a meaning for each and every single one of these creatures?
I'll shut up now and I do apologise for how long this probably is, it's been a lonely road and it's past 4am I can't find rest so it gets me thinking about everything in general so, sorry for the rant. I do hope you take my message lightly and with an open heart tho, how you have to experience someone to be able to tell if they're good or bad instead of "judging a book by its cover" I've found to be the same with God.
Everyone will tell you something and you will only find the truth in what they say or don't or find the answer to your own questions if you live it yourself. I hope you may find some comfort in praying - it sounds like such a serious word but honestly most of my prayers is me either crying about something or walking around the house doing chores and talking out loud about what's been on my mind.
Sometimes I'll just talk inside my head too, it really is that simple. Give it a try, not just once or twice, but also don't force yourself to. Feel crazy if you must, some paths are unusual. If you are into philosophy then you must know, sometimes the way to logic is irrational — oftentimes irrationally opens the door for the nonsensical to make sense. Treat it like creating a bond with someone you never met, you have to nourish it right? Show interest, be reciprocal, but above everything be honest because there's no trust without truth. I pray these messy arrangement of words of mine can shine some light somehow, I'm really sorry again for how long this became.
May God meet you where you are, bless your beautiful soul!
୭ Kafka Von Goethe ཐི♡ཋྀ
For some reason I can't read it very clearly (probably because I'm on my phone) but reading the comments and replies I do feel the need to say something - and it's merely my personal opinion so please, don't take it as me trying to force anything on you!!
Also sorry for any mistakes, english is not my first language so I just write however it makes sense to me in my head.
First, I must say that most of the people you see and hear talking about God, preaching His word and etc... they do not have Him in their hearts. Period. The Church, in Christianity that is, refers to all those who walk by faith in Christ. Not everyone who claims to follow Him are in Him, does that make sense? Actually, to my personal point of view Christianity is the most spiritual "religion" there is to be but what's being preached over the years are rules and law
- not the Word. Jesus himself reprimanded the religious leaders of the time for abusing their titles and weaponising God's law to burden His people with such heavy burdens and said they are responsible for scattering His children instead of bringing them together like God has always intended to, that all innocent blood is in their hands. That because it has been a recurring theme throughout history where men will use scriptures and the bible to assert themselves so they can bend the law to fit their own agenda and justify their actions as in some twisted divine authority that, by the way, go completely against God's will and His word.
That was one of the reasons I left when I was eight - now mind you, I wasn't born in a christian household per say, my grandmother who raised me til that age was a woman of faith, my mother said to be but her actions and attitude were anything but of one so there's that. And my dad was never in the picture since he left when my mom found out she was pregnant so. But I did experience God when I was young, at 3 years old and it's one of the clearest memories I have of myself. There's pictures of me being a year old, less even, and kneeled by the couch with my face pressed against it praying, probably not even saying any coherent thought. I'm telling all this because, even with that, I still left and stopped going to church at 8 mostly because of my stepfather and then 1 just completely disconnected from it.
That is to say, I didn't understand much back then as a child, yet I heard God simply because I was open to get to know Him despite not understanding Him one bit. Which is funny because 12 years later and I'm back, I understand Him much better now but the more I understand the more I realise I don't understand a thing in reality. It's confusing, right?
I don't really know what I even intend with this comment, but the title of your post was something I used to think and say to others about religion as well so I guess it caught my memory. Writing this makes me reflect on how my views on God and the bible changed once I started looking for answers myself, just Him and I, instead of going with what others said or assumed of Him. The way I view it now it's like when you hear a friend talking about someone they're close with, then you hear someone else talking about that same person only they don't personally know them so they can only say what they think of them — not what they know through lived experiences, so it's always driven by the affinity they might or might not feel towards them. Then you get a chance to meet that person yourself and draw your own conclusion and you notice none of them were actually right about that person. The relationship you find is different because your own personal life experiences are different, so you can't be conditioned by someone else's experience that you, yourself, have not lived through. Same I found it to be with God, your relationship with Him will most likely be nothing like mine for example, because we most likely have lived very different lives and what is a wound to me won't be the case for you, what is a blessing for you might not be fit for me, so God will act differently in each of our lives but His intention is always the same. Freedom, grace, joy, love above all else.
I know I said somewhere before how christianity is the most spiritual centered "religion" there is, and I just remembered and wanted to clarify why: Jesus main purpose was to bring freedom. The jews, for example, didn't believe Him to be the Messiah because they did not "see" this freedom, they believed it meant freedom from Rome. Jesus says that our fight isn't against each other, isn't against humans, but against forces of evil that rule over this world. When John is to be killed and he sends men to go ask Jesus if He is the one they have been waiting for or if they should keep waiting and Jesus replies with something along the lines of "the blinds see, the deaf hear, the captives are being freed" He was doing miracles among the people - healing them. But when I was reading this verse a couple weeks ago for the first time after starting to seek more of God, I had this conviction that not only that, but "the blinds" also meant all the people who were being led astray from God by the weaponising of His word and that, through Christ, saw and found the truth of what it was actually meant to be, "the deaf" were those who had consequently hardened their hearts to God because of the mistreatment and abuse they’ve been suffering all those years by the very same reason but now, with Him walking on earth as one of them had their hearts softened through hearing the gospel from His own voice, and "the captives" here is in the sense of spiritual enslavement. All those who were oppressed by evil spirits, who had been misguided to give legality for anything that is not from God to act on their lives (most times misguided by the leaders of the time), everyone who was suffering any kind of spiritual oppression were also becoming clean by Christ when he'd cast out demons, for a rough example. It makes sense why God says "my people stumble and fail because they do not know the scriptures", it's easy to manipulate someone using something they don't know about so they can't defend themselves.
In this world, everything is spiritual — the physical reflects and affects the spiritual and vice versa. The difference is God is respectful, He’ll maybe knock and you’ll maybe open the door for Him but He’ll only enter if you invite Him in. He won’t knock down the door and force something on you just because. That is just his character, He’s respectful, gentle, humble, human. He extends forgiveness to those who have faith in Him, even if they struggle to believe which is the most normal thing to happen, by faith in Christ you are justified of everything you’ve ever done.
I've said all this but my point is please, from one person to another, don't let your beliefs be dictated by what you see others say, or think, or by their own beliefs. Draw your own.
I mean this heart to heart, sincerely, in the most loving and genuine way possible, truly. The world is messed up, I've cried earlier in prayer because every time I step outside I'm filled with this dread that everything is falling apart and there's nothing we can do to fix it or help it even a little bit and that's even more messed up, money has become the idol of this world, everything is vanity right now, everything is superfluous and everyone's distracted with meaningless things while there's so many ongoing problems that no one seems to care about anymore. Again, everything has a spiritual side to it — and that doesn’t take away human accountability, but it does mean that where someone give legality in the spiritual, it will reflect on the physical and God won’t put His hand on something He hasn’t been called into not out of authority or power, out of respect and order. The spiritual world is much more organised than ours. And with everything I admit that faith is such a simple concept but it's so hard in practice because you don't see, sometimes you won't hear or feel either and it's practically incomprehensible for our minds to comprehend and understand something as true when we can't see it so our brain can grasp, I know and it's valid, it's logic, there's no fighting in that. Look for answers yourself, if you can. Try praying once, before going to sleep, even if you see no point and don't believe it at first, do it for the sake of getting an answer, do it for the sake of knowledge and understanding. Don't need to kneel, just lay in bed and talk in your mind. If you don't believe then say that, you know?
Say "Jesus I don't believe in you, I can't understand you or your logic, I don't believe I need you, I don't see any point in seeking you, I don't agree with what I've heard/read about you but this crazy girl commented on one of my posts earlier asking me to do this and to prove her wrong I'll give it a try, she wrote this five page essay ranting about nothing that made much sense to be honest". I say this because I was led to believe that I had to be perfect to be a christian - not as in religion but as in having faith in Christ and believing in God. I used to think that meant I was expected to never do anything wrong ever again and that's just unrealistic for any human being because we have a tendency to want things that most of the time we don't need, and we tend to give in to those wants because it satisfies us momentarily but never wholly, so we keep going after and giving in because we don't know anything else that can fill that void permanently.
So I thought it was impossible for me to follow all that but the whole point is that since the beginning, God gave us free will so we wouldn't be slaves not even to Him but come to Him out of our own will — to seek answers, to get to know Him, to seek help. He expects us to exert our free will to choose Him. But He also already knew that by giving us a choice we'd choose the harmful option (spiritually harmful), since the beginning He had given us a choice and a solution to the consequences of what He knew we'd choose and that solution was Christ. Because of Him it doesn't mean I have to be perfect, God knows we can't do it on our own and He doesn't expect us to, I've recently read in the bible that it is not by good works that we get to heaven because someone can do good things publicly and still be a horrible person inside, but by faith in Jesus we give Him legality to act on our lives through his Holy Spirit, so His spirit testifies with our human spirit that we are daughters/sons of God and He is the one who starts changing our convictions, hearts, minds, lives, environments and so on - knowing we won't be perfect all the time, knowing we will make mistakes, and want to give up because it's a hard path at times and yet He says that if you do, but instead of hiding away or ignoring it you turn to Him and just talk to him about it, you are forgiven. The more I read the bible, pray (which I consider myself bad at honestly), and just overall try to seek Him throughout the days despite everything that could lead me to simply settle for whatever the majority say about "who God is" and "what God wants" and "why God doesn't do this" or
"why God does that", the more I myself put in the effort to search and find the more I find and what I've been finding lately is that all God wants is trust and honesty from us, not perfection, never perfection. We'll only be made perfect when in heaven but until then He expects us to fall, He knows we do, He just asks us to go to him and let him be the one who takes cares of our needs because He knows what we need beyond what we want or crave, He knows what our spirits need in order for us to BE fulfilled, not only feel, and have a meaning, a purpose in life that brings us a peace that it's hard to explain. Why would He create such intricate creatures and give them a home with land that grows everything they need without having a meaning for each and every single one of these creatures?
I'll shut up now and I do apologise for how long this probably is, it's been a lonely road and it's past 4am I can't find rest so it gets me thinking about everything in general so, sorry for the rant. I do hope you take my message lightly and with an open heart tho, how you have to experience someone to be able to tell if they're good or bad instead of "judging a book by its cover" I've found to be the same with God.
Everyone will tell you something and you will only find the truth in what they say or don't or find the answer to your own questions if you live it yourself. I hope you may find some comfort in praying - it sounds like such a serious word but honestly most of my prayers is me either crying about something or walking around the house doing chores and talking out loud about what's been on my mind.
Sometimes I'll just talk inside my head too, it really is that simple. Give it a try, not just once or twice, but also don't force yourself to. Feel crazy if you must, some paths are unusual. If you are into philosophy then you must know, sometimes the way to logic is irrational — oftentimes irrationally opens the door for the nonsensical to make sense. Treat it like creating a bond with someone you never met, you have to nourish it right? Show interest, be reciprocal, but above everything be honest because there's no trust without truth. I pray these messy arrangement of words of mine can shine some light somehow, I'm really sorry again for how long this became.
May God meet you where you are, bless your beautiful soul!
「 ✦ safa ✦ 」
(this comment section makes me feel simple minded but ima try LOL)
okay, im an undercover ex muslim girl (turned agnostic) whom still lives in a muslim household. i agree with the fact that Islam HAS been warped into something not only horrific, but enforced to ppl in Afghanistan, especially women. Its been used not only by muslims for muslim control, but also been warped by western media, especially after 9/11. Although it isnt AS demonized now as compared to back in the 2000s, its still being warped.
Although me being muslim didnt entail my happiness, it can still bring joy to others, and peace of mind, especially. but, its kinda a double edged sword imo. within my family specifically, its used mostly for control purposes, mainly regarding women. but, thats also a single family out of what.. almost a billion muslims?? (too lazy to google lolz). It does bring peace of mind to some, destruction and harm to others.
Its not truly as simple as religion = bad horrific things, but it sometimes does. but thats, to be honest, humans as a whole. they choose both what to believe in, and what to do with it. it may not be good, but its the (partially) the disgusting society we live in.
anyways im out. im getting hand cramps, but this could imo, be a whole ass deep dive, which I highly rec looking into!!!
XXコルプスプリンセスXX
I honestly don’t understand the concept of a religion where you need to please some kind of god, I feel like it’s better to just be grateful for what the earth and everything has given you than to beg to a most likely non-existent god who wants you to do everything they say or you’ll be punished. As someone who follows Shintoism I just don’t get that. Why can’t people just be grateful for the things that the world has created, why does the world need to have a meaning? Why can’t people just enjoy life for life and not because of fear. Maybe that’s just me though. I really don’t understand the mindset of “I need to follow what this god says or else I’ll be punished and I need to not be happy in order to find happiness” it just doesn’t make sense. People should find happiness in their everyday lives from the air that they breathe and the food that they eat to great events that happen in their lives. I just think humans can live happier lives when they surround themselves with good and happy things and thoughts rather than fear. Why can’t we just thank the earth and the energy it gives humans and everything else in between?
Again that might just be me. Fear seems to be the most popular tactic for religion though so I don’t know(at least that’s what I’ve seen).. I don’t think humans need to go through pain in order to be happy in the end to find purpose. Because we have no purpose so might as well find the happiness and be thankful for it.
LuciLucilia
I am frankly getting really sick of random people thinking they've discovered the real nature of religion, even whenever they often haven't interacted deeply with anything that they're criticizing, nor with the deeper nature *of their own criticisms*. No investment into theology, religious studies, history of religion, etc etc etc.
The real problem with this sorts of grand statements, the kind that little to no academic would make about these subjects, is just simply that they're without nuance, and fail to account for cases to contrary. For instance, you say "religion", but only here speak of Islam and Christianity... what of other religions? Ones that are less interested in the religious objects that those two are. Many religions aren't interested in the question of sin, or the question of eschatology, or even of belief more generally. In some cases, take Daoism, little to nothing you said applies.
But then furthermore, even amongst Muslims and Christians it is kind of hard to make a blanket statement such as you have, not the least of which is because of the *internal diversity* that these religions have, as with all religions. What of Sufis, what of Quakers? They are interesting groups that behave quite a bit differently on average than other folk Christians and Muslims. It feels like there are so often these, usually white, peoples who think that their familiar with folk Christianity and perhaps some Islamophobia that they've been given by American anti-Middle Eastern propaganda makes them some kind of expert on religion.
And "folk" Christians and Muslims is an important distinction to me, since despite criticizing *an institution*, it feels like you have little to no institutional criticism. What do you make of the way this institution interacts, both currently and historically, with other institutions such as Patriarchy, or Capitalism, or Imperialism? Perhaps, as I would argue, a lot of the evil within religion is contingent on the ways in which its been modified and adapted by other institutions. Little to no wars have ever been truly "Religious Wars', religion was only the casus belli, most wars are ultimately material, related to land acquisition or the acquisition of resources and commodities.
If you want to criticize the stupidity of a lot of everyday Christians and Muslims, go right ahead, many of them frankly deserve it. However, if you're *just criticizing those groups, with no sentiment thats actually generally and universally applicable to all religion, then perhaps narrow it down*.
As a couple closing notes:
"Believing in god implies the existence of a being who will judge you after death, checking whether you were good enough and whether you accepted his commandments." How does this necessarily imply this? Plenty of religions and religious peoples don't believe in this, and I find it easy to imagine an ontology wherein God exists but does not judge people morally at all, let alone after death.
"Personally, i find the belief in something that we cannot see, feel, hear, or touch to be irrational." I find this pretty unlikely because we as people are constantly believing in the intuitive postulations needed to make decisions, but even so, take Science. Science *works* with data that is perceivable to the senses, or some kind of sensory tool anyways, but it the methodology itself is not sensory... nowhere in the physical description of the universe do we find Science, it is instead the opposite formula, that we often find a physical description of the universe inside of Science as a method. That being said, even then, for some people thats falling apart with some interpretations of Quantum Physics and its various phenomenon... which are actually another case of things you can't "see, feel, hear, or touch".
;)
by axiya of damnatio; ; Report
Hehe.
by LuciLucilia; ; Report
Youre writing a whole essay about the complexity of religion, but none of it actually hits the point im making. youre acting like mentioning a bunch of different religions somehow changes the fact that there is still zero real evidence for any god at all. bringing up daoism or sufis or quakers doesnt magically create proof where there isnt any.
Science isnt the same thing as belief. i can look at physics, experiments, data, actual results. science gives us things that work, things we can see and test. religion gives stories and claims that cant be proven in any way. trying to compare those two just doesnt make sense at all lol
and talking about small or obscure religions doesnt help your argument either. just because something is less focused on sin or has a different structure doesnt suddenly make it logical or real. if anything, smaller religions have even less to back them up. it doesnt matter how rare or poetic or philosophical they are. none of them provide actual evidence
youree also focusing on how diverse religions are like that somehow makes them above criticism. it doesnt. you can split a belief system into a thousand pieces and it still doesnt make the supernatural parts true. complexity doesnt equal truth. tradition doesnt equal truth. popularity doesnt equal truth. nothing in religion can be tested or verified
im talking about the fact that so many major religions use fear as a foundation. fear of sin, fear of punishment, fear of judgment. thats not me misunderstanding anything, it’s literally written into the teachings of those religions. pretending this is all just a misunderstanding of "folk religion” is honestly just dodging the obvious. (also religions not having those things still doesnt make it okay lol) so yeah, i get that you want everything to be nuanced and academic, but none of that changes the main point. if a belief system makes huge claims about the universe and cant back up any of it with actual proof, then its completely reasonable to question it. no amount of side arguments or exceptions changes that basic reality.
by lolstash999; ; Report
It actually does whenever you're making broad statements about religions and what they believe in, and many of those religions do not believe in God, or even Gods at all. And trying to frame religions that don't personally fit into your narrative as merely "small or obscure" doesn't matter whenever you're making a universalizing statement... if there is an exception to a rule, it is not a rule. Not the least of which is given to the fact that those religions aren't "small and obscure" when taken together as whole, though may be when taken in each individual case (depends on exactly when a religion starts being small and obscure). Nor, regardless of their size and obscurity, are they above criticism. The reason I was "acting" that way, is because you were making generalizing statements and arguments about *religion* that were in many instances not actually applicable to all religion. As I said before, if they are an exception, it is not a rule.
Now, getting into the Science you apparently must care so deeply about... you seem to entirely misunderstand its Epistemology. Which, to be clear, is what Science is grounded in... there is no science without an Epistemology that it follows from. And Epistemology, if you are unaware, is a philosophical school of inquiry. That is to say that it is not itself a physically observable and verifiable object. Now, if one agrees with the epistemology, then Science provides an methodology for acquiring data. What Science does not do is interpret that data... we can attempt to interpret it logically, or by some other framework, but Science does not interpret that data in of itself. All of this is to say, Science does not prove Science, since as I said in the previous message, "nowhere in the physical description of the universe do we find Science". And no, Science having clear utilitarian benefits doesn't make it true, not in the sense of Absolute Truth, anyways. This is proven by—say—philosophical pragmaticism, which is definitionally not about whats true but is about whats useful.
Now, I was thinking of copying and pasting this entire section from Routledge's Contemporary Introductions To Philosophy "Philosophy of Religion: A Contemporary Introduction by Professor Kieth E Yandell" that proves, in outlined and clear axiomatic logic, the way in which what I said in the paragraph above is logically consistent and follows.... However, I kinda figure I can point you to where you can read it yourself if you're genuinely curious, since Anna's Archive or Library Genesis always have it online. It is on pages 344-346 of both the original 1999 printing and the 2002 reprinting....
All of the above is, to be clear, why I care so much about things being oh so academic and nuanced... because *that* is what is *rigorous*. Of course, you seem to position yourself as someone who cares about rigor, but in reality, your argument is not as authentically grounded in rigor as you may believe it to be.
And, frankly, if you end up reading that excerpt from the book above, I recommend reading other parts of it too, perhaps the whole book... it would actually teach you a lot about the thing you're criticizing. Even if you remain critical of it, you would have the tools and foreknowledge to be able to criticize it in a better manner.
by LuciLucilia; ; Report
this argument, reduced to a single pulse
by axiya of damnatio; ; Report
A Xavier Renegade Angel reference in the midst of this was not what I was expecting, but exactly what I was needing.
by LuciLucilia; ; Report
youre throwing a lot of philosophy terms around but none of it actually changes the basic reality that im even talking about. religions make claims about reality that they CANT prove. thats it.. and saying some religions dont have "gods” doesnt help, because they still make claims about spirits, forces, karma, souls, reincarnation, or other supernatural stuff that has zero evidence behind it. you can call that an "exception” if you want,, but an exception with no proof is still an unproven claim
whenever i talk about science, im not talking about feelings or opinions. im talking about testability and falsifiability. science works because it follows rules that have to be met before something is accepted. if a claim cant be tested, repeated, or falsified, it doesnt count as knowledge. this isnt MY personal idea,, this is literally the foundation of scientific method
karl popper, the philosopher whose work basically shaped modern science, stated that if something isnt falsifiable, it isnt scientific. you can read that in the logic of scientific discovery from 1934. religion, by definition, fails falsifiability, because no supernatural claim can be tested or proven wrong under controlled conditions.
another example, carl sagan said extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence. his book the demon haunted world explains exactly why supernatural claims dont hold up. every religion makes extraordinary claims, and none of them provide extraordinary evidence. or any evidence at all lmao
if you want more, the stanford encyclopedia of philosophy has an entire section on the problem of evil and how the existence of suffering contradicts the idea of an all powerful, all good god. philosophers like mackie and rowe have written on this. nothing in religion has solved it. so again, no evidence that holds up.
youre also saying science doesn’t "interpret” its own data. yeah, no kidding. interpretation isnt the same thing as making up supernatural explanations. interpretation still has to be backed up by data, experiments, models, predictions, and review. science produces technology and accurate predictions. religion doesnt. you can talk about epistemology all day but it doesnt change observable reality.
you keep telling me to read books on philosophy of religion, but yet still none of those books actually provide evidence for religious claims. theyre arguments defending positions that still have no proof. adding more layers of theory doesnt actually produce evidence out of thin air. thats why simplicity matters. if a belief system makes a claim about how the universe works, it needs verifiable evidence. religion has none. science does.
so no thanks , i dont need to read 300 pages of philosophy to see the obvious. a claim with no evidence stays a claim with no evidence, no matter how academic you try to make it sound.
by lolstash999; ; Report
You're really quite obstinate about all this that, in all of my "throwing around philosophy", the point I'm making in response to your original point goes over your head so completely. You made some argument about religious belief being irrational or untrustworthy or otherwise not valuable because of its inability to be founded in Science, and I pointed out how Science itself can't even be found in Science, even though I think both of us would agree that Science is useful, good, valuable, etc etc. The point, basically, is to suggest "If you think Science is good despite not being founded in something that is itself scientific, then you must be open to the possibility that other forms of coming to truth exist beyond science alone." The first part of this statement being proven through rigorous axiomatic logic, as I sourced previously.
Also, Karl Popper was quite agnostic, though there is that famous quote of his where he says: "I don't know whether God exists or not (...) Some forms of atheism are arrogant and ignorant and should be rejected, but agnosticism—to admit that we don't know and to search—is all right. (...) When I look at what I call the gift of life, I feel a gratitude which is in tune with some religious ideas of God. However, the moment I even speak of it, I am embarrassed that I may do something wrong to God in talking about God."
He also said: "Although I am not for religion, I do think that we should show respect for anybody who believes honestly."
We are, of course, talking about *the Karl Popper* who was a famous theorizer on the *Open Society*, which necessarily includes religious plurality. And when he speaks of arrogant and ignorant forms of atheism, I frankly think he is talking about yours.
I could also go on about how there are actually some nicher aspects of things you've said that suggest you also don't really understand his idea of falsification or other aspects of his philosophy, but I frankly think it would be a waste of my time, plus you seem to not care for me "throwing around philosophy" anyways.
The irony being, of course, that this is an innately philosophical discussion. You've walked into a gun fight with a knife.
I'm less overtly familiar with Carl Sagan so I have nothing to add there, although I like how that literal elementary quote of his is your most prevalent point there. Either way, I figure there is no point beating a dead horse, because I suspect you're going to keep focusing on the "lack of scientific evidence" thing, even though I've already responded in kind to that.
by LuciLucilia; ; Report
It's sad how he couldn't have an actual conversation and instead mostly kept repeating the same thing over and over again.
by Preuss; ; Report
axiya of damnatio
decentralize "god" as not a being, but a synonym to entropy. that the Abrahamic "God" and the "god" that we assign ourselves are not one in the same. what is your "god"? what do you assign it to be? if you chose to give power to the "God" that exists through the meaning of the masses, then you would also be the slave.
i believe that counter-culture doesn't really exist. if you adhere to the structure that is pre-existing, then you are just as much consumed as the others you rebel against.
so, what is the answer?
expose yourself to other cultures, other walks of life--reveal and consume as many experiences possible and force yourself to come to your own conclusion--and worship your own mythos, your own religion.
-axiom of "god"(?)
You get it! If someone's only criticism of "religion" as a whole is just the version thats immediately apparent to them, then they make the same universalizing and generalizing mistake that these *very same people* will criticize *all religious people* for. All of it without looking towards what religion *could* or *can* be.
by LuciLucilia; ; Report
against_the_world
(I am not religious myself, but I am studying it.) On the other hand, religion gives comfort to these people. "What should I do in this situation?" - they read it in their book or ask their priest who gives them answer. When they feel bad, they go to the priest and tell them their worries, or they pray and tell their worries to their god. And a part of them are comforted by the idea that there is something after death, that they will see their loved ones once again.
Now wait until something doesnt go their way. They will feel depressed and ruined and will feel like god doesnt love them, and i know it on my example and many of other humans that i know that have felt the same way
by lolstash999; ; Report
I don't know as for people around me it's different.
by against_the_world; ; Report
Christian here. It is common to feel like God doesn’t love you but it is quickly disproven when he reminds you of everything he’s given to you
by PerfectMistakeUltraDX; ; Report