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Alternative subculture is any artistic/musical/fashion movement that differs from the mainstream. Generally people have considered alt style to be leftist because through most of human history because the right has been the mainstream, at least according to today's standards. But now that has changed.
I can't give you an exact date, but in recent years, the establishment has become overwhelmingly culturally left leaning. Look at modern universities, they're not particularly known for turning people into right wing extremists. Same with public schools in urban areas, and my school openly encourages students to take part in LGBTQ activities, and things like mass migration and abortion are taught to be good things. In the UK 12,000 arrests are made per year over social media posts deemed offensive, usually meaning critique of mass migration or racist comments.
Or look at the US government, at least before trump, US tax dollars were being spent on LGBTQ programs in southeast Asia, under the biden administration the minister of health was transgender, pride flags were flown at the white house, gay marriage is legal in every state, and abortion is in most, most major news outlets are center left (cnn, nbc, abc, cbs, the new york times, the washington post), the only major right wing one is fox news.
Things have changed a bit since trump, but still when you look at the media, they attack trump anytime they get the chance, even for things that aren't his fault. Or look at every major corporation and their support for LGTBQ, you might say that they're just trendhopping, which may be true, but that proves that what is "trendy" today is LGBTQ.
And in mainstream music, a lot of artists sing about sexual freedom, doing drugs, and sometimes homosexuality. All of which are rejected by the right and accepted by the left. In media, black people are overrepresented compared to their actual percentage of the population.
The establishment has been so culturally left, that you can no longer say that you need to support these things to be alternative. Yes, you can support capitalism and be alt, as long as it is not the capitalism we see today, greatly influenced by government decision making. I dont think it is alternative to support the establishment right, like the charlie kirk type of people. I think the dumbest thing you could say as an alternative person is "you're not alternative unless you support my ideology, which is also supported by corporations and the government"
Edit: I think i failed to clarify some things. Just because alternative subculture does not require you to be left wing, that does not mean you have to be right wing. When I talk about the establishment I am talking about the western establishment. Being right wing is not just boomer conservatism.
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Loveland frogman𓆏
The only way for this to really be true is if the democrats were actually left wing which they are not. They're like maybe centrist but they are right even culturally they aren't very far left. They fucking hate trans people they just don't say the quiet part out loud like Republicans. Like I'm not saying that conservatives can't be a part of subcultures but like it wouldn't be the same as like the left wing equivalent. Because you can't put the same label on left wing punks and right wing punks cuz right-wing punks usually tend to be Nazis.Speaking of Nazis, I just want to say that you really need to check what you're talking about. The part where you said that black people are over represented in media is a white supremacist talking point, I'm not trying to call you Nazi I'm just saying that you were not immune to propaganda.
When defining if something is left-wing or right-wing it either means economically or culturally. Democrats tend to be centrist to center right economically, but socially I'd say they are pretty left. If they hated trans people they wouldn't of provided "gender affirming care" to the incarcerated, or flown a pride flag at the white house.
The reason right wing punks sometimes turn out to be nazis is because it is rebellious or counterculture to the current political climate, same with communism or anarchism.
I don't really care about what is considered a "white supremacist talking point" because if it is true and relevant to what I'm saying then I'm going to say it. Supporting wealth redistribution is a communist talking point but I'm still going to support it independent of who it's associated with.
by chuddie; ; Report
ale
it's not about being against what's mainstream it's about having equal rights and just having a good time no matter who you are.
this all argument is made up by people who want to be in our scene but without our beliefs. it's not just about the music, it's about the ideology and if you dont want to accept that then you're either dumb or a poser
alternative subculture is about rejection of what is mainstream. a lot of alternative people in the west are pro communism, but punk under the soviet union was anti communist and pro individual freedom.
by chuddie; ; Report
under communism there was almost no individual freedom, people wanted that. in today's society, the right wing is remiving rights from people, beingleftist isthe better choice to get them back. dont you see a pattern? it's about having individual rights
by ale; ; Report
Assuming the right is fighting against individual rights, they haven't been the ones in power (until trump) as gay marriage is legal in every state and abortion and cannabis are in most
by chuddie; ; Report
Mayday
Look i bet you really like thinking your the underdog against those nasty liberals but the fact is that no matter the political climate conservatives will always stand for traditional values and being alternative is always going to stand for revolution and liberation.
so you can lisen to our music and wear our clothes but that's not what makes us alt.
it's the community and what we stand for that makes us alt
Revolution is not inherently a leftist idea and neither is liberation
by chuddie; ; Report
That is true but as it stands counterculture, while not always liberal is almost always political or contrarian.
Just as hippies are inherently anti-war and punk is anti-establishment, it is impossible to take away the politics of being alt. And while not being centered around a specific ideology the values that makes alt a subculture (anti-rasism/homophobia/fasism) are are also inherently anti-conservative
by Mayday; ; Report
NuklearSkinless
TRVTH NUKED EVERYONE ON SPACEHEY!!!
FUCK RABM FUCK COMMIES!!!
neko
why your views are so US centric lol? and why you take the meaning of alternative at such a face value? it's more nuanced.
look, through history, women, poc people, queer people, non christians and disabled people have been oppressed, as well as anyone who resembled then, or just "didn't fit in"
the alternative ideals were the way to go against that, against that part of the history.
if you try to bring it back, then you're not alternative. you're conservative (in the mainstream use of the word).
you can't just go and say "alternative is rebelling against the norm" because of course, if the alternative ideals become the norm, then the alternative ideals shift into the whole opposite of what they were.
well, you can think that, but people are gonna think you're wrong because you're missing the point that everyone else gets.
and the point is, how being alternative refers to the rebellion against the historical norm. meaning what has been the norm for hundreds of years.
and while you can say that it's not like that anymore where you live, it's still like that on almost everywhere else in the world. in fact, it's still like that on your region, you just live in a bubble. let's say, there's more bubbles there than the bubbles we have here, but they're still bubbles. there's still a different reality outside them, the rest of the world. there's people who dare to say racism doesn't exist in my country venezuela, an absolute blatant lie. i've experienced racism and colorism myself from people who were both different and the same as me.
you can't just say something is "the new norm" until it's not the norm in most other places.
and a little small bit i forgot to add.
keep in mind the mindset of "no one is absolutely free until everyone is truly free".
by neko; ; Report
The evil establishment right is against thing of the past. Most of the ideas they fought for are the norm now (gay marriage, abortion) of course economically america is still a center right country, but culturally it is liberal left.
Subcultures change, and in the 80s when reaganomics were a thing and everyone was scared about metal being satanic it was the cool thing to rebel against that. Now it's not like that anymore and liberal left ideas are widely accepted (at least until trump got reelected).
My point was that the establishment is culturally left in the west, not in the east.
by chuddie; ; Report
the concept of the western world is highly debatable.
anyway, at least if it meant A HALF of the world's population, i MIGHT understand you, but it isn't even. i can feel you didn't read my comment because you basically didn't addressed any of my points there.
and yes prohibiting gay marriage and abortion are forms of opression. you say the evil right is a thing of the past when it's still fully up here, right now.
for example, a way of opression is pushing your ideology and religion into each individual person.
you might feel that the woke pro lgbt marriage agenda is being pushed onto you but that's not actually true. you can still marry someone from your opposite gender and have your traditional family and kids. you CAN do IT! this is not a "we're gonna marry and you're not gonna!" this is a "everyone can marry if they want to!" they are not opressing you by marrying, because you are not forced to marry someone or follow someone if you don't want to!
now, by prohibiting gay marriage, you are pushing your ideology and religion onto gay people by also limiting what they can do with their lives.
so this is a "we don't want you to marry who you want! marry someone who alligns with our ideals!" because you essentially expect them to only marry someone from their opposite sex.
i don't know if this will apply to you specifically but this is also pushing a christian agenda onto ppl cuz you're essentially not wanting them to marry because "the bible say marriage is between a man and a woman" or something like that AS IF OTHERS EVEN CARE??? it's NOT our ideology, it's not our deal, you SHOULD let people live their life, do what they want even if they're gonna be brought to the "eternal suffering" or whatever they say on the bible i guess.
you might think you're being opressed by having to "accept" it but uhm i think you still don't get the concept of tolerance, me thinks. you don't have to accept it, but you don't wish harm to them. you don't expect them to be opressed. you're gonna ignore it, move with your life.
you can't desire people to get opressed and then get mad when people call you a bad person.
abortion is more debatable but at the end of the day prohibiting it is also a way of opression
just the act of forcing someone to deliver a baby when they DON'T WANT TO is a way to opress the needs of the person. meaning, opression. lol it's that easy.
also, subcultures CAN change, but this doesn't apply here buddy.
yes, the counterculture can change, but this doesn't mean that you can be punk and right leaning. you can't be punk and favor opression.
to be alternative and favor opression it has to be applicable elsewhere. not just in your community of the US, the UK or Australia or whatever, there's like 193-195 countries in the world. in other parts of the world, you will not be "alternative", you will be part of the norm.
in most countries, if you stood up against opression, you would be against the norm. it is still like that in most countries. does you think that latin america, africa and asia are just 3 big countries? LMAO. acting like everything is all about the US, classical right winger sigh.
another classical right winger thing is just ignoring all of my points, i see.
if you're gonna reply, please address each of them. including the ones you didn't on my last comment. you might say "oh but i can't see your comment anymore" WELL just keep another tab open or something like that???? duh
by neko; ; Report
Why i use the west as the "establishment" is primarily because i live there and I'm sure most spacehey users do, but also because most music, media and modern culture comes from the west. If we're talking about the establishment in the east it is right wing.
I didn't address your points because they were about the morality of right and left politics. My blog was about what is mainstream, whether they were good or bad is not relevant to this topic.
and yes prohibiting gay marriage and abortion are forms of opression. you say the evil right is a thing of the past when it's still fully up here, right now.
I never actually said anything about ideology being forced onto anyone, because oppressing or desire to oppress does not automatically mean you are part of the establishment, however I do feel as if culturally leftist ideas are being pushed onto me because the school i go to encourages leftist activity among students, and teaches leftist ideas that arent true as fact to students who have only been educated on left wing politics to know that they're being told lies.
I don't really care about oppression, i care about what is moral. Your arguments focused more on why banning those things was oppression or not. Both of us believe immoral things should be oppressed to some extent (for example people who advocate for genocide should be oppressed of their right to run for office). But still my blog was not about that, but I'm going to explain my view on it anyway.
Gay marriage should not be legal because it abandons religious and cultural traditions that have existed for thousands of years so two same sex people can sign a contract which to them is essentially just a piece of paper. Marriage is and always has been a religious institution, in this situation, I can just say "because the Bible says so" because without the Bible there is no concept of marriage within the western world. A country is defined by its cultural and religious history, so it should not throw that out.
Abortion should be illegal because it is the termination of a human life within the womb. It is widely agreed upon by biologists that life begins at conception. And it is human because it is the result of two people with xx chromosomes and xy chromosomes copulating. It is not the body of the mother because it has separate DNA from her. Any process that involves crushing the skull of a human and tearing their limbs off is barbaric, and so it's not oppression to prevent something like that from happening even if it involves and unwanted birth.
I guess johnny rotten isn't punk for calling a woman who had an an abortion an animal and a bloody disgrace.
What is mainstream differs in location, saying that someone is not mainstream in the UK for opposing the system there because theyre in favour of a system similar to a different country is like saying being a nazi was mainstream in the UK in the 1940s because it was in Germany.
I am aware that many non western countries are right wing. But that's not my point. There is no worldwide establishment, the establishment/mainstream is different depending on where you are. My blog never mentioned non western countries because it's not about those countries, it's about the west, and the western establishment.
Replying to your original comment:
I noticed my blog focused too much on the US to i changed it to include europe.
Because the rights of those people have been fought for and won, it is not alternative to uphold those things anymore. Alternative is always going to be about rebelling against what is considered normal, mainstream or popular, and when we look at those things we see more culturally leftist ideology than culturally right ones. Pushing for any system that is not part of the overton window is alternative, even if that system has existed already.
It's not alternative to rebel against a system that hasn't been in place since the 60s, it's just cringe.
And I dont only care about the west, but my point is about the west only. You haven't really done anything by saying its different in other countries because i agree with you on that.
by chuddie; ; Report
trigger happy
did you know that being alternative was to combat the right? you cannot be conservative and punk. you cant be conservative and goth. you cant be conservative and emo. you cant be conservative and scene. you cant be conservative and ANYTHING alternative. you are not one of us. alternative sub cultures were created to combat the right and be different and individual and everything BUT right wing. im not very super into politics, but, if i can grasp this concept, you should be able to as well. please correct me if im wrong!
Being alternative is to combat the establishment, which has historically being right wing until around the 2000s I'd say.
You cannot be alternative an support the same ideology as the UN, kamala harris, kier starmer, public schools and universities, mainstream music, mainstream advertising, mainstream corporations, and major news outlets.
by chuddie; ; Report
i dont like kamala harris to begin with but in my opinion ring wing politicians are so much worse than anything kamala could ever be. hope this helps!
by trigger happy; ; Report
Whether someone is worse is not relevant to this conversation, it's what is part of the mainstream, or the norm
by chuddie; ; Report
"mainstream and norm" I get bullied in school for a band T-shirt + that still doesn't help that it's our thing. Let us have something for once because we're actively having it stripped away by people (like you)
by trigger happy; ; Report
Is it a political t shirt? If not I dont see how that's relevant. Im not trying to take anything away from you, I just want people like you to realise that you're no longer the cool outsiders rebelling against the evil establishment.
by chuddie; ; Report
were outsiders rebelling against the establishment
👍
by trigger happy; ; Report
Have you listened to anything I've said
by chuddie; ; Report
JUDAS
genuinely what the fuck are you on about. i'm not sure why ur making the jump and automatically equating 'alternative' as counter to whatever's mainstream when it has ALWAYS been anti-status quo. you're haphazardly saying 'alternative' like it's this nebulous definition without any grounding in the history from which it arose. alternative subcultures have always come out of a disillusionment with repressive, reactionary social norms, and even if i used 'alternative' like how you do here, there is NOTHING remotely anti-mainstream/anti-status quo about being socially conservative right now.
if the establishment were truly left-leaning and 'progressivism' is this virus you think it is, we wouldn't be sending our tax dollars to a foreign country committing war crimes. maybe we'd be classless, non-patriarchal. whatever you perceive as popular being espoused by the 'establishment' (you really mean to say the top dogs, those in power---the billionaires, corporations) is only said to serve them (aka capital, money).
☝️💯
the guy is a literal neonazi, he literally has "chuddie" as his name, so he's not even hiding it
by irradiation sparkle; ; Report
There's nothing inherently right wing about funding wars.
Leftism isnt just your brand of leftism. It has many forms, including the keynesian pro-lgbt pro-abortion liberal leftism we see within the establishment.
by chuddie; ; Report
As wtf has liking the chudjak meme got to do with being a nazi
by chuddie; ; Report
*and
by chuddie; ; Report
kinda going on a tangent here but.. again, if the establishment were truly as liberal and progressive as you think it is, then why the fuck was roe v wade overturned under the dems? they didn't do (and still haven't) anything about it either, and instead of being principled and taking a firm stance as pro-choice they waited idly by so it was something to run on for the upcoming election.. and if we harken back to it, kamala didn't mention lgbtqia+ (really trans) rights once. it was very clear they had no intentions on running any kind of left at all (to, of course, secure their donors)---the furthest they went was ensuring abortion, and that was something they could've fixed IN office because they had a fucking trifecta. but remember, either party has the same masters. the dems will continue exploiting and working on the backs of everyday people just like the republicans do, just under a less extreme, legal, prim n proper front, a 'left' aesthetic.
all n all: the 'leftism' you're outlining here is hardly left.. democrats might prevent or lessen the more extreme policies republicans may try to pass, but when it comes down to shit like universal healthcare or ending perma wars, they'll never go that far because 1. it's not profitable, especially to the superpacs n billionaires that line up their pockets and 2. goes against the very concept of capital itself, which is inherently expansionist and needs war (and the sick. how else will big pharma make money?). it's why i consider the democrats center right, not left. it kinda seems like you're spewing things you've heard, not what you know.
by JUDAS; ; Report
alsooo uhh you might wanna google the history of chuds, wojaks, and 4chan.. i find them pretty funny myself lol but it's good to know
by JUDAS; ; Report
PeeJay0069
Yeah no.
No yeah
by chuddie; ; Report
xeviant
I will say, in some cases like punk and goth, there IS an underlying political view that I feel is core to those subcultures. There are some specific subcultures that are inherently political and taking that overtly political nature out of it is just straight up being a poser.
But I do agree the ppl are trying to rewrite the history of other subcultures like scene saying the “oh if you don’t agree w ____ political view, you’re a poser”.
In scene subculture, many of the most iconic ppl like Kiki Kannibal and the millionaires are also trump supporters (ie. Allison from millionaires) and/or nasty ableists and racists (moreso Kiki). And these ppl fawn over these ppl calling them iconic and whatever.
But on the other hand, there’s many LGBTQ+ scene kids, there’s scene kids of all races, etc.. I don’t think there was one underlying political view..
Even tho the stuff that happened in the history of the subculture doesn’t align w today’s view of “pc”, you can’t just say that subcultures like scene were always leftist when they really were not.
And this is coming from someone who leans moderately to the left. I think it’s bs sometimes. Anyways sorry for the yap but I wanted to give my two cents bc I keep seeing stuff like this and it makes me slightly frustrated.
XxDanny_UndeadxX
alternative music, style, & fashion is inherently leftist. thatz y it started. has evry1 alt person EVR been leftist? obv not. but they r POOSSEERRZZZ
i used 2 b right wing b4 i grew a brain, & i used 2 b a right wing alt person. i was a POSSSERRR
if u actually cared abt being alt, ud do research & stop listening 2 ppl who nevr had ur best interest @ heart
Alternative subculture used to be left wing when leftists were the ones that were fighting against the establishment, now their ideology has seeped into the establishment, meaning it is no longer inherently alternative to be left leaning. Alternative now is not the same as it was in the 80s since this progressivist ideology is now found everywhere within mainstream culture.
I used to be left wing until I questioned my source of my moral system that had been ingrained into my mind since a young age by the religion of progressivism.
Ok instead of listening to people who care about my demographic I'll listen to leftists tell me how white men are evil because I'm sure they have my best interests in mind.
by chuddie; ; Report
who said white men r evil
im a white man. all we r saying is white men commit, like, a whole load of crimez cuz they r privileged 2 do so. we rnt trynna inherently demonise white men, just make it 2 where they r punished 4 crimez they do commit
by XxDanny_UndeadxX; ; Report
also,,, huh? progressive ideology is NOT mainstream. donald trump is president, & even democratic presidentz r nowhere near left enuf 2 b considered progressive. ur rlly just looking in all the wrong placez
by XxDanny_UndeadxX; ; Report
White men are the ones that commit crime?
by chuddie; ; Report
The majority of major news stations are center left, and most of mainstream music pushes for things like sexual freedom, homosexuality etc. The school system also pushes for progressive ideology.
by chuddie; ; Report
uhm. okay? wut is wrong w sexual freedom & homosexuality? sidez, music isnt the government. & schoolz having left-leaning viewz is smthn that conservativez say just 2 rile u up. it is rarely true in any form, & while collegez & universitiez in larger citiez tend 2 b left leaning, it is far from indoctrination. i went 2 school in the south, & guess wut? it was vry vry right leaning & full of indoctrination
by XxDanny_UndeadxX; ; Report
i shld also clarify; i have absolutely nothing against u as a person. im not trynna immediately imply ur a bad person or u suck just cuz thatz rlly easy 2 do & move on. i genuinely want 2 b compassionate & know where u get ur belief from, cuz evrybody getz them from somewhere. there is NO such thing as an unbiased person
immediately hating on u just cuz ur opposite of me is smthn conservatives do 2 queer & alt ppl & i do not stand 4 that kind of action
no, not every alt person is a gud person. yes, many pop starz & movie starz r hypersexualized—thatz just how it is. is that gud? no. most alt ppl will agree w u on that 2.
but conservatism killz. the thing alternative music was originally meant 2 fight against STILL existz & thatz y being alt is STILL leftist. fascism existz now more than ppl r immediately able 2 see
& abstinance doesnt equal safe sex. sex in media shld not b normalized the way it is, but eradication of it entirely only causez children 2 b more rebellious & more likely 2 end up in perilous situationz cuz parentz wld prefer 2 blind them 2 it then teach them how 2 do it safely
&, no, white men do not commit every single crime, nobody believez that, but men statistically commit the most violent crimez of either sex, & white men r inherently privileged bcuz they r not discriminated against. progressive ppl do NOT BELIEVE EVERY WHITE MAN IS EVIL!!!! we simply KNOW they will likely b punished eithr barely or not @ all if they do harm u
by XxDanny_UndeadxX; ; Report
Even if those things weren't wrong, that's not the point I'm making, what I'm trying to say is that those things are mainstream and also in line with progressive ideology. What the establishment is, is not just the government, but also what is popular, acceptable and mainstream, which when we look at mainstream artists, especially in rap, we see the things that I mentioned, which progressives agree with, meaning progressivism is not alternative.
Schools opinions will vary depending on where you are. In rural areas they will be more right leaning, and in urban areas they are more left leaning. I go to school in an urban area and progressivism is taught as facts in my school. But what separates them is that in urban areas students are more likely to have careers in things like politics, meaning they have a greater influence ove political culture. While in urban areas, that is less likely, so the indoctrination in schools has less effect on the political climate. Also i don't see how right wing thought being taught in schools is indoctrination but left wing isn't.
by chuddie; ; Report
no thought shld b taught in school, information is meant 2 b objective & unbiased. im not saying left wing propaganda does not exist, im saying it is inherently not alternative 2 indoctrinate
not evry leftist is alternative, but evry alternative is leftist
being alternative is meant 2 go against a governmentz oppressive or fascist regime & promote progressivism. it is not abt being a minority. yes, more ppl NOW r alternative, that does not mean that being alternative doesnt exist
bsidez, most "alternativez" in the mainstream r poserz trying 2 sell a product. most r still right wing
either way, i can tell i wont change ur mind & im not gonna try cuz it is pointless 2 go on like this. i go on the internet 2 escape the ideology i have 2 suffer from evry day
by XxDanny_UndeadxX; ; Report
Yeah I agree with u on being compassionate. I think people are too easy to hate someone because of political opinions, shutting down all discussion and labelling them as whatever extreme ideology they think is bad. But I see a lot of ot from both sides, as i have interacted with both of them often.
What alternative culture was meant to fight is no longer as prominent. The satanic panic is no longer a thing. Gay marriage is legal. Abortion is legal in most states. The only real backlash has been with trump, and maybe the mainstream culture will become more right wing, as my view is that anything that is considered a subculture or underground will eventually become the mainstream, you see it in music, politics, art etc.
I personally think contraception should be legal, but I would rather schools promote not engaging in sexual activity until you're ready to have a child than promoting contraception. Contraception doesn't always work but not having sex does. Of course some people are still going to try it and that's why contraception should still be an option.
Men do commit most of the crime but it's not the white men (https://www.prisonpolicy.org/blog/2018/03/19/race-class-debate/)
It is much more societally acceptable to be racist against a white person than any other race.
What i said about leftists hating white people obviously does not go for all of them, but when it comes to getting white men on your side, the right does a much better job at speaking about the problems they face than the left.
by chuddie; ; Report
With your logic monarchism, theocracy, distributism, libertarianism and corporatism (all right wing ideologies) are more mainstream than liberal social democratic progressivism. Just based on the fact that one is right and the other is left, even though one is found nowhere within the establishment and the other is found everywhere.
by chuddie; ; Report
Angel｡>‿‿<｡
I lowkey feel bad for people dragging u in the comments but I refuse to believe that you can be right winged or conservative AND alt. That to me is a contradiction and makes no sense. Most if not all alternative subcultures have a political base to them so if dress alt listen to the music and alat that's fine but if you are also a trump supporter you are somewhat of a poser. So this opinion is kinda bad
Right wing isn't inherently conservative and conservative isn't inherently pro-trump. Of course supporting trump is not alternative and neither is mainstream conservatism. Anything that is outside of the overton window is alternative by definition, and my point is that the Overton window is center left, and the only real shift rightwards we've seen has been since trump got voted in. But both left wing and right wing ideologies can be outside of the Overton window and so both of them can be a part of alternative subculture
by chuddie; ; Report
Aster
This is the worst ragebait i have ever seen
You only see opinions different from yours as ragebait because you're stuck in an echochamber
by chuddie; ; Report
Cernunnos
As a metalhead I'm laughing. It depends on where you live (left-wing and right-wing ideas change between countries even tho they remain similar) and in which subculture u are
The establishment in the west is a lot more left wing than the establishment in the east which is pretty conservative
by chuddie; ; Report
doctor soyberg md
obydy ci obydy ci takata obydy obydy ta mangalenge mukte pias ilaganajra tatala ilaganajra tatala le save sika teamare hajteketeketaetaa ame santa levarvale hajteketeketaetaa mangalenge mukte pias ilaganajra tatala ilaganajra tatala le save sika teamare hajteketeketaetaa ame santa levarvale hajteketeketaetaa
👍
by chuddie; ; Report
꒰ა𓊈ℤ𝔸𝕄𝕀𓋜𓊉໒꒱
I mean this in the most disrespectful way, this is an absolute dogshit take
Thanks for the informative commentary ꒰ა𓊈ℤ𝔸𝕄𝕀𓋜𓊉໒꒱
by chuddie; ; Report
Why is it a bad take? I mean, they're right. Alt was about questioning the authority, the establishment, and the freedom to think whatever the hell you want, but you guys turned it into reverse conservatism. Alt people in the past hated being told what to do, who to be. They hated control, but now the "alt" people of today with their dyed hair and pronouns are doing the exact thing.
"You HAVE to be this or you aren't allowed here." That's what the conservatives back then told the punks, which is why they made their own space where you don't get to tell us who we can or can't be. You don't get to tell us how to act or think. You don't get to control us.
You tiktok alt kids don't actually care about people being controlled into conformity, you care about which party is doing the controlling, and have no problem when it's your party with the upper hand.
TLDR: Just listen to the music to be goth, emo, metalhead, and punk. Just dress scene to be scene, and yeah, be whoever you want, even if you're a right winger. No one who goes outside cares I promise you.
by Monsterk1tty; ; Report
la chilindrina
with all disrespect, this is the most stupidest fucking thing iv read today.
go read a fucking book
by la chilindrina; ; Report
What did I do wrong
🥀
by chuddie; ; Report
Edamame
alternative means to not conform, which makes alt anti-authority to some extent, which is leftist (anarchist) way of thinking
The left is in favour of more authoritarian positions than the right. For example, mandatory vaccination, strict gun control, and strong government regulation over the economy.
by chuddie; ; Report
uhm no the left stands for individual freedom, which means no one having decisions made on their behalf. the solutions to these problems that we propose is better education, etc so people understand the decisions theyre making and choose whats best for themselves. we also hate the government more than anybody rofl, although very few leftists support authoritarianism, but only as a method to achieve a more free, independent society. you can call that methodology hypocritical, but it says nothing about leftist values.
by Edamame; ; Report
I'm sorry but this is lowkey the worst take I've seen on this topic. The left has never stood for individual freedom, I have no clue where you got that idea. If the left believed in individual freedom it would believe in the ability for people to form and choose health plans, associations, and charities freely, e.g private healthcare. They would also believe in individual responsibilities, like how the free market forces people to suffer the losses of their bad decisions.
The left is collectivist, and instead supports a system in which all private property becomes public, and economic decisions are planned, meaning the economy depends on oligarchs instead of private individuals.
Even if education is improved, people's decisions are primarily not made by them. Instead of being able to choose which healthcare they see fit, they receive the government's healthcare. Instead of deciding what education they want to give their kids, their kids will get state education.
Also everyone supports better education, that's not a leftist idea.
Leftists may hate the current government, but they dont hate the government as a whole, since they support the government taxing them more, to pay for things. While the economic right is against the government as it is now as it is under any system.
Most leftists aren't openly authoritarian, but the policies they support are.
by chuddie; ; Report
This is not a take this is like the entire thing behind anarchism (which is the philosophy of leftism mostly). U listed a bunch of things that anarchists actually support. Only that individual freedom means to ones interest, not ones greed, because thats a social thing and isnt what is meant by INDIVIDUAL freedom. Thats why anarchists believe in economic equality being the key to human progression and innovation. The right, in this case i assume right wing libertarians, support the states only real function: protecting private property (and monopoly). The right (mostly) supports the states most violent functions (police, prisons, etc). Liberals (remember theyre not leftists) support functions of the government that keeps capitalism more stable before the next inevitable crisis. Socialism wants to abolish the core violent functions of the government and instead have a government that keeps things under control (problems caused by mainly capitalism). Usually still violent against people who stand in the way of their goal, but the governments authority allows itself to be challenged by solidarity of the people. Since this government serves other functions, it is not needed and will "fade away" leaving behind an anarcho-communist society (the goal of both anarchists and communists), where everyone has individual freedom and economic equality. Anarchists however believe that no socialist stage is necessary, but that capitalism and the state will fade away once the people realize what it does to them and stand up for themselves in solidarity with one another. Me having to explain this should be a hint that u might wanna educate yourself on this topic a bit before making these baseless claims.
by Edamame; ; Report
You're committing the no true scotsman fallacy and redefining leftism as anarchism. Leftism has many forms and many of them are authoritarian.
they want higher taxes, seizure of property from wealthy individuals and forced redistribution. They also want to keep prisons. Just look at any socialist country.
Anarchism is not just left wing. Anarcho capitalism is an ideology that is anarchist and in favour on individual responsibility.
Right libertarians are opposed to all forms of monopoly as coercive, including private ones. They believe that private monopolies are formed by government intervention that favours some businesses over others. For example spacex, amazon, and Microsoft have all received government benefits.
Again, you're redefining leftism as your form of leftism. Liberalism (when i say liberalism i mean Liberalism today, not classical liberalism) is leftist because it is in favour of culturally left ideas like gay marriage and abortion, and supports heavy government intervention when compared to conservatives or libertarians.
What you said liberals support is just keynesianism, which is capitalist, but an ideology can be left leaning and still support a free market, but with government intervention.
Socialism does NOT want to abolish any coercive functions of the state
Economic equality can not be achieved without restrictions on businesses that prevent people from making more than another person.
I have been aware of what communists want so there was no need to explain it. The thing is that in the intermediary stage between the stateless classless moneyless utopia and where we are now authoritarianism is required to seize private property from people and to increase taxes. I know that anarchists want to skip that part, which i never denied or challenged, and dont see how thats got to do with my claim. anarchism is not just left wing as well. My problem with your claim is that leftism does not allow for individual freedom more than the right, as I have already stated. I think you should educate yourself on right wing ideas and leftism outside of just what you believe.
by chuddie; ; Report
Anarcho capitalism is made up bullshit rofl. You might know some of the stuff I mentioned but u definitely didnt understand it. Also of course there can be economic equality by just yknow... not having businesses so theres nothing to regulate. The shit u right gives me a headache wdym "seizing private property" girl please. Yeah sure the leftists are the ones restricting everyones freedom but not allowing someone to cross a line on a map or deviate from an oppressive binary identity system doesnt count or what? Anyways I love ur profile its quite cool.
by Edamame; ; Report
Anarcho capitalism is anarchism because it lacks a state. I think its a pretty stupid ideology but its still a form of anarchism.
For there not to be businesses there would have to be even more authority because you would need to prevent people from starting a business. In an economically equal society there would be a need to either prevent businesses from making more than another, or to prevent businesses from being created, which are both restrictions on people's economic freedom.
You cant just change the subject by talking about something completely irrelevant. The seizure of private property requires the government to intervene in someones life. You can only have economic equality with authoritarianism because the existence of private property allows people to make money freely, which also allows people to make more than other. So the government would have to abolish people's right to private property for economic freedom to be possible. Anarcho communism would not be possible because without a centralised authority there would be no way of stopping people from privately owning property or their own business. I think anarcho capitalism would be better than anarcho communism because anarcho capitalism allows for people to create worker owned businesses while anarcho communism does not allow for people to have free consensual exchanges (aka employment)
by chuddie; ; Report
mikhail
no. youre seeing a "liberal" shift of the establishment done by the democratic party, which still fully supports oppressing the world through capitalism. the two party system is one, aside from gay marriage and other social rights. youre seeing the pink washing of politics in real time. the establishment has always been capital and colonial greed.
I agree that many people within the establishment do not actually care about the things they push for. But the reason they push for those things is because those are the things that are popular within mainstream societal culture.
The capitalists I think can be alternative are the ones that are on the more libertarian side, that are anti-interventionist and against the government. If supporting capitalism makes you a poser then so does supporting government intervention or LGBTQ.
by chuddie; ; Report
MJ
you seem to misunderstand what being "alternative" is.
historically, most of alternative aesthetic (fashion, music etc.) come from some marginalized groups. be it rap, hip-hop, rock, punk, jazz etc. For those people, it was a way to defy mainstream society while celebrating parts of them that they were shamed for.
being alt has always been closely linked with left ideologies, such as pro-lgbt (pridewashing in June doesn't count as actually supporting LGBTQ rights btw. JK Rowling is still massively anti-lgbt despite having "gay" characters in HP), pro-choice, pro-immigrstion, antisexist, BLM, anti-consumerism, pro-ecology, pro-freedom, etc.
so yes, being alt is hardly compatible with capitalism since the latter sees no issue in exploiting people for profit, in sucking the money off of customers by all means necessaryb
(i accidentally sent it before i was finished lol, it wont be long tho)
— but also discarding basic human decency and morals to serve their own selfish interests. one of the best examples of that are anti-homeless architecture. to avoid "unsightly" sights near shops (= to not discourage potential customers from entering shops and buying things), the architecture is designed to be the less comfy/practical possible which then not only puts homeless people in worser predicament, but also impacts how welcoming streets become to everyone else (-> corporations prioritise their profit over the well being of literally everyone else)
so yeah, maybe try to lesrn more about alt movements, and id love to talk more about it
by MJ; ; Report
alternative subculture arose from the left. But that was when the left was fighting against the establishment, now they are the establishment. The capitalism I am talking about is not the capitalism we have today, but instead a capitalism is opposed to the government and always has been. You cant say that its alt to support LGBTQ, but not alt to support capitalism, since both of these things are prominent within the establishment.
If you want to know more about the establishments tendency to lean left, I would recommend looking into some of the ideas espoused by the dark enlightenment philosophy.
by chuddie; ; Report
I re-read your blog and i have to ask, what are those "establishments" you speak of?
Then i'll just reply in a more structured way than yesterday because i was half falling asleep.
"Universities not particularily known for turning people into right wing extremists" yes, because the rest of society is already pretty right wing, so when people go to university they are given the possibility to change their worldview and think more critically about what they believed. It's not so different from Plato's cave allegory, at the difference that right wingers (aka the people still in the cave in the allegory) are stubborn to explore that their beliefs might be harmful & illogical.
"public schools, at least in my school ideas like communism are promoted in classes" Are they really promoted by the curriculum, or does the teacher simply explains it in a way that makes it make sense? Here (France) WW2 is taught extensively, and even more in my region because we have suffered and made others suffer a lot during both wars (look up Malgré Nous if you're curious), that being said, we don't need the teacher to explicitly tells us that the Shoah was bad or that the Marshall plan was a good starting idea. We understand that by ourselves with the information we are given, namely, the horrifying records of deportation and the financial hole europe was in after the war. It's not "promoted", we are just given all the info about it and asked to make our own conclusion. Hence why despite what we are taught, antisemitic kids still exist.
"US tax dollars were being spent on LGBTQ programs in southeast Asia." my initial reaction was that it's good... but doesn't the US have enough problems on its own soil? why not first focus on improving idk... the minimum wage? the cost of medical bills? or funding LGBT support programs in the US? ban conversion camps once and for all? Even before Trump, the US was NOT the leftist country you seem to take it for.
"that proves that what is "trendy" today is LGBTQ" once again, you misunderstand the tactics used there. it's not because it's "trendy" to be queer that corporations queer-wash themselves for pride month. it's because they know that by pretending to care, they will be able to draw in naive queer customers. it's very much hypocrisy.
if being queer was so "mainstream", transwomen wouldn't have the highest mortality rate among queer folks. queer women wouldn't be at such risk of "corrective" rape. if it was so "mainstream", queer kids wouldn't end up homeless or abused after coming out to their parents.
finally, capitalism IS mainstream because that's how most of the world works right now. And i mean capitalism as in "the economic system where means of production is privately owned and operated for profit." So being alt means being anti-capitalism (what you then want to be is up to you, whether an alternative capitalism, communism, etc.)
by MJ; ; Report
if universities just made people more intelligent which according to you makes them more leftist, we would expect universities to have always produced leftists, whilst in the past and in other cultures that is not the case. also universities don't make people further left because they push for unbiased history which i guess the far left agrees with, but because the ideology taught is from a leftist perspective.
the teachers are very biased in my school to push leftists agendas. in my citizenship lessons, my teacher has pushed for things like mass migration as a solution to lower fertility rates, and abortion as a means of stopping unwanted pregnancies, whilst also claiming that the idea that immigrants are favoured for employment over natives is false without giving any reason why.
it seems pretty leftists to intervene in another country and promote LGBTQ ideiology,
if pretending to care about LGBTQ didn't work as a marketing strategy they wouldn't do it. what you said proved my point. corporations follow trends now as they did in the 1940s, only now what's trendy isn't conservatism, its leftism.
trans people have a higher mortality rate because of suicide due to gender dysmorphia, which doesn't make it any more or less mainstream. violence against LGBTQ is done by a minority, at least in the west, and is greatly condemned by governmental and corporate institutions. again, child abandonment is done by a small minority, and is condemned by practically all of society.
i agree that capitalism as it exists today is not alternative, but if you think that supporting capitalism is not alternative, then neither is supporting LGBTQ funding, welfare (at least in europe), or diversity.
by chuddie; ; Report